31 replies to this topic

[3rd party JKor]

I don't really want to get into the technical merits of one over the other, I'm just wondering if anyone has brewed the same beer as AG and extract? What did you find to be the differences?My first extract batch in a while is in the keg right now. I'm not liking it too much. My recent AG batches have been coming out really good, so this has me wondering. If I brew the exact same recipe as AG will it come out significantly different?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I don't really want to get into the technical merits of one over the other, I'm just wondering if anyone has brewed the same beer as AG and extract? What did you find to be the differences?My first extract batch in a while is in the keg right now. I'm not liking it too much. My recent AG batches have been coming out really good, so this has me wondering. If I brew the exact same recipe as AG will it come out significantly different?

what was the extract recipe? how confident do you feel that the extract was?I have made similar recipes (ESB and APAs in particular) but they were too far apart in time for me to compare. My methods have also changed over time so there are other variables other than AG vs extract to contend with.

[Stout_fan]

Old Fart and I would do the annual AG vs Extract comp at his home. There were several good beers in each approach. OF was particularly proud of his RyePA. So one year I decided we should do a comparison. He gave me his recipe and I converted it to AG. The net result was the two beers were so close we couldn't tell them apart. Neither could the judges. So we concluded for a lighter or mid weight beer a good extract is sufficient.Then I suggested next year he try to clone my SAE50 RIS and do another comparison. He conceded without argument. Turns out to get the mouthfeel he was looking for in his beers he had gone over to a mini-mash. He had reached the point where over half of his fermentables were coming from AG. I "regrettably" had to inform him he had become an AG brewer by definition. THAT did not make his day.

Edited by Stout_fan, 30 November 2009 - 08:11 AM.

[3rd party JKor]

I made a Mild for my extract recipe. I pretty much pulled the recipe out of my butt while I was heating up the water. The recipe is below. It does seem a little thin, but that's not as much of an issue as the flavor. It has what I might describe as a 'green' flavor. Almost like and unripe banana. Maybe it's because the beer is very new, but this isn't a flavor I've been experiencing with my other beers, even early on. % Amount Name Origin Potential SRM----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 82.8 12.00 lbs. Briess LME- Gold America 1.035 4 3.4 0.50 lbs. Pale Chocolate Great Britain 1.031 205 3.4 0.50 lbs. Crystal 80L America 1.033 80 3.4 0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L America 1.033 120 6.9 1.00 lbs. Biscuit Malt Belgium 1.035 24Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.Hops Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1.75 oz. Goldings - E.K. 2008 HD Pellet 4.50 17.8 90 min. 1.00 oz. Goldings - E.K. 2008 HD Pellet 4.50 1.8 10 min.Yeast-----White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Old Fart and I would do the annual AG vs Extract comp at his home. There were several good beers in each approach. OF was particularly proud of his RyePA. So one year I decided we should do a comparison. He gave me his recipe and I converted it to AG. The net result was the two beers were so close we couldn't tell them apart. Neither could the judges. So we concluded for a lighter or mid weight beer a good extract is sufficient.Then I suggested next year he try to clone my SAE50 RIS and do another comparison. He conceded without argument. Turns out to get the mouthfeel he was looking for in his beers he had gone over to a mini-mash. He had reached the point where over half of his fermentables were coming from AG. I "regrettably" had to inform him he had become an AG brewer by definition. THAT did not make his day.

So was his RyePA still an extract batch or did he mini-mash it?JK: That recipe certainly looks fine to me. I assume you followed all of your standard fermentation procedures? Did you do a late extract addition?

[denny]

I recently converted my amber ale recipe to extract so that Northern Brewer could use it as a kit. It was damn close to the AG version.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I recently converted my amber ale recipe to extract so that Northern Brewer could use it as a kit. It was damn close to the AG version.

Is the AG recipe on their site yours as well?

[Howie]

I made a Mild for my extract recipe. I pretty much pulled the recipe out of my butt while I was heating up the water. The recipe is below. It does seem a little thin, but that's not as much of an issue as the flavor. It has what I might describe as a 'green' flavor. Almost like and unripe banana. Maybe it's because the beer is very new, but this isn't a flavor I've been experiencing with my other beers, even early on. % Amount Name Origin Potential SRM----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 82.8 12.00 lbs. Briess LME- Gold America 1.035 4 3.4 0.50 lbs. Pale Chocolate Great Britain 1.031 205 3.4 0.50 lbs. Crystal 80L America 1.033 80 3.4 0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L America 1.033 120 6.9 1.00 lbs. Biscuit Malt Belgium 1.035 24Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.Hops Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1.75 oz. Goldings - E.K. 2008 HD Pellet 4.50 17.8 90 min. 1.00 oz. Goldings - E.K. 2008 HD Pellet 4.50 1.8 10 min.Yeast-----White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale

Well, a few issues I'd point out. Your extract base - you probably wouldn't use American 2-row as a base for a British beer, so the Briess extract may not have been the best choice. Two, biscuit is really more of a mashing grain than steeping, so you may not have realized the full benefit. Third, that yeast is extremely attenuative, so that might be part of the problem.None of these really point to the flavor problem in your beer, though. . .

[Big Nake]

Good topic. I have been threatening to do an extract batch "just because" and concentrate on all of the "other stuff" like getting a good, quick chill, aerating, pitching a good amount of healthy yeast, watching primary temps, etc. You know, all of the stuff that applies to both extract and AG. The only example I have of both is MLPA which was made numerous times as extract and then eventually all-grain. When I first started brewing all-grain, the batches were "good" and immediately better than extract. I wish I could explain it... but the beer just seemed smoother, cleaner and deeper-tasting to me. As I continued to make all-grain beer and I concentrated on all of the little details, the beers started coming out even better to the point where I would hold a glass of beer up to the light to look at it, take a sip and then shake my head in amazement that I has made it. I'm not sure I ever had that feeling with extract.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I'm not sure I ever had that feeling with extract.

I know exactly what you mean. I've been very tempted as well but to make a full 5 gallons of beer that I could have made better might kill me

[Howie]

I know exactly what you mean. I've been very tempted as well but to make a full 5 gallons of beer that I could have made better might kill me

After probably 5 years of all-grain brewing, I'm planning to do an extract batch in the coming weeks. I'm supposed to do a brewing demonstration for a group of friends at the end of January, and I was going to brew the recipe in advance. I want to see how it comes out in advance and also have the recipe we are brewing available for drinking on the day of the demonstration.Like Ken said, I've learned SO MUCH about all the other aspects of brewing since my extract days, that I think it will come out very good.

[denny]

Is the AG recipe on their site yours as well?

Yep. There's both the amber and the Rye IPA there. They sold kits of both, but of course the Rye IPA was AG only.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Yep. There's both the amber and the Rye IPA there. They sold kits of both, but of course the Rye IPA was AG only.

I actually used that amber as the basis for the one I'll be brewing this upcoming weekend. I tweaked it a little but it should be somewhat similar. Thanks

[harryfrog]

Good topic. I have been threatening to do an extract batch "just because" and concentrate on all of the "other stuff" like getting a good, quick chill, aerating, pitching a good amount of healthy yeast, watching primary temps, etc. You know, all of the stuff that applies to both extract and AG. The only example I have of both is MLPA which was made numerous times as extract and then eventually all-grain. When I first started brewing all-grain, the batches were "good" and immediately better than extract. I wish I could explain it... but the beer just seemed smoother, cleaner and deeper-tasting to me. As I continued to make all-grain beer and I concentrated on all of the little details, the beers started coming out even better to the point where I would hold a glass of beer up to the light to look at it, take a sip and then shake my head in amazement that I has made it. I'm not sure I ever had that feeling with extract.

I noticed the same thing. My last extract batch was MLPA and my first all-grain batch was MLPA. Both tasted good, but the extract batch tasted better, sooner. I had kept some of my extract brews kicking around and noticed that those ended up being good beers, but it seemed that the wait period for the greeness to go away was longer with extract vs. all-grain.I also noticed that once I switched to AG I had much truer colors and dryer beers. It seemed the extract I was using never cleaned up as well.I still wonder if this is because when we switch to AG, the depth of brewing knowledge is required to be higher that we pay more attention to the small details.Ken, if you do this experiment, please post the details!

[denny]

I actually used that amber as the basis for the one I'll be brewing this upcoming weekend. I tweaked it a little but it should be somewhat similar. Thanks

You tweaked my perfect recipe???????

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

You tweaked my perfect recipe???????

[3rd party JKor]

Well, a few issues I'd point out. Your extract base - you probably wouldn't use American 2-row as a base for a British beer, so the Briess extract may not have been the best choice. Two, biscuit is really more of a mashing grain than steeping, so you may not have realized the full benefit. Third, that yeast is extremely attenuative, so that might be part of the problem.None of these really point to the flavor problem in your beer, though. . .

I agree with all those things. This beer is the first step in building up the WLP007 to ferment a 1.090-1.100 winter spiced beer, which was the reason for using the 007 over something like the 002. It definitely finished drier/cleaner that what I would've wanted from a stand alone Mild. I also thought about doing something that would be more suited to the 2-row pale extract base, but I wanted something low gravity and low-hopping for optimal yeast building conditions. So, it was definitely a beer with compromises, but none that would have led to the flavor issues. Really, it could just be a young beer thing. I'll revisit it in a month or two and see where it is.I do think i'll re-brew it as an AG, just out of curiosity.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I agree with all those things. This beer is the first step in building up the WLP007 to ferment a 1.090-1.100 winter spiced beer, which was the reason for using the 007 over something like the 002. It definitely finished drier/cleaner that what I would've wanted from a stand alone Mild. I also thought about doing something that would be more suited to the 2-row pale extract base, but I wanted something low gravity and low-hopping for optimal yeast building conditions. So, it was definitely a beer with compromises, but none that would have led to the flavor issues. Really, it could just be a young beer thing. I'll revisit it in a month or two and see where it is.I do think i'll re-brew it as an AG, just out of curiosity.

[Stout_fan]

So was his RyePA still an extract batch or did he mini-mash it?

It was a mini-mash as well IIRC. I tasted his, judged the mouthfeel and guessed at a 147°F mash.I was right. The two beers had similar mouthfeel.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

It was a mini-mash as well IIRC. I tasted his, judged the mouthfeel and guessed at a 147°F mash.I was right. The two beers had similar mouthfeel.

no offense but:boooooooooo - not a real comparison.