Jump to content


Photo

Dayton shooting


  • Please log in to reply
158 replies to this topic

#41 miccullen

miccullen

    Cheap Blue Meanie

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 63092 posts
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Posted 05 August 2019 - 04:35 PM

I'm generally pro-gun myself but this chart is kinda telling IMO:

https://en.m.wikiped...pita_by_country

it tells me the other countries aren't as awesome


Edited by miccullen, 05 August 2019 - 04:36 PM.

  • 0

#42 BrewerGeorge

BrewerGeorge

    His Royal Misinformed

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 33030 posts
  • LocationIndianapolis

Posted 05 August 2019 - 04:38 PM

I've given 2 links and another was posted, all of which contain lists of free countries. Pick any of the examples you like. I'd personally put Australia and Canada pretty high on my personal list of free countries.
cato:

The jurisdictions that took the top 10 places, in order, were New Zealand, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, the Netherlands and Denmark (tied in 6th place), Ireland and the United Kingdom (tied in 8th place), and Finland, Norway, and Taiwan (tied in 10th place). Selected countries rank as follows: Germany (13), the United States and Sweden (17),

It's like you're just googling stuff and linking it without reading it.  Those lists you've given are rating economic freedom.  Singapore is a dictatorship without free press that allows caning.  There is no right to fair trial, or basically anything that we recognize as "freedom."  But you can make a lot of money there, so it's high on the list.



#43 the_stain

the_stain

    Phat O'Mic Chef Winner!

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 79497 posts

Posted 05 August 2019 - 04:45 PM

It's like you're just googling stuff and linking it without reading it. Those lists you've given are rating economic freedom. Singapore is a dictatorship without free press that allows caning. There is no right to fair trial, or basically anything that we recognize as "freedom." But you can make a lot of money there, so it's high on the list.


You must have only clicked on one of the links.

The list of countries above, from Cato, is much more comprehensive (emphasis mine):

The index published here presents a broad measure of human freedom, understood as the absence of coercive constraint. It uses 79 distinct indicators of personal and economic freedom in the following areas:

Rule of Law
Security and Safety
Movement
Religion
Association, Assembly, and Civil Society
Expression and Information
Identity and Relationships
Size of Government
Legal System and Property Rights
Access to Sound Money
Freedom to Trade Internationally
Regulation of Credit, Labor, and Business


Anyway, you said "name one" free society. I've named about 20 (based on the above criteria). You dismiss all of them as "not free"? Show your work.
  • 0

#44 Brownbeard

Brownbeard

    Comptroller of Ilks

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 31265 posts
  • LocationCedar Rapids, Ia

Posted 05 August 2019 - 04:45 PM

Canada is an extremely free country. So is Australia. There are loads of free countries. It's kind of hard to say we're so star spangled free, when we have the most imprisoned population in the free world.
  • 0

#45 Sidney Porter

Sidney Porter

    Comptroller of the Banninated

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22079 posts
  • LocationColumbus OH

Posted 05 August 2019 - 05:13 PM

It's like you're just googling stuff and linking it without reading it. Those lists you've given are rating economic freedom. Singapore is a dictatorship without free press that allows caning. There is no right to fair trial, or basically anything that we recognize as "freedom." But you can make a lot of money there, so it's high on the list.

you keep shooting down his list but not providing a link to the one you are using to define overall freedom. Is is just USA, Mexico and Guatemala (countries with constitutional rights to guns)?
  • 0

#46 BrewerGeorge

BrewerGeorge

    His Royal Misinformed

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 33030 posts
  • LocationIndianapolis

Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:17 PM

you keep shooting down his list but not providing a link to the one you are using to define overall freedom. Is is just USA, Mexico and Guatemala (countries with constitutional rights to guns)?

I have up guns for the sake of argument.

I asked for countries that have protections similar to those recognized in the 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments.

#47 the_stain

the_stain

    Phat O'Mic Chef Winner!

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 79497 posts

Posted 05 August 2019 - 07:54 PM

I have up guns for the sake of argument.

I asked for countries that have protections similar to those recognized in the 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments.


Right. You moved the goalposts. You provided a very narrow definition of "free country", supposing none will fit. Now no matter what country we name as a free country, you'll point to the lack of those very specific things and say it's not "really" free. Waste of time.
  • 0

#48 BrewerGeorge

BrewerGeorge

    His Royal Misinformed

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 33030 posts
  • LocationIndianapolis

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:07 PM

Right. You moved the goalposts. You provided a very narrow definition of "free country", supposing none will fit. Now no matter what country we name as a free country, you'll point to the lack of those very specific things and say it's not "really" free. Waste of time.

Would you really consider yourself to live in a free country if you did not have freedom of speech? That's the First.

Would you say you lived in a few country of you weren't protected from random search and seizure? If you were subject to warrantless anything they wanted? That's the Fourth.

Would you say you were free if you didn't have a right to a fair trial? If you could be forced to testify against yourself? 5th.

This is a low fecking bar, Man, not a "narrow definition."

#49 the_stain

the_stain

    Phat O'Mic Chef Winner!

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 79497 posts

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:11 PM

It's not explicit, but Australian legal precedent holds that there is an inherent right to free expression that goes along with a democratic system of government.

Again, no explicit "fourth amendment", but there are legal protections and guarantees vs unreasonable search, warrants required, etc..

Australia also guarantees, in law, the right to a fair trial.

Are you really going to argue Australia is "not free" because they don't specifically have these things in their Constitution?
  • 0

#50 BrewerGeorge

BrewerGeorge

    His Royal Misinformed

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 33030 posts
  • LocationIndianapolis

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:13 PM

It's not explicit, but Australian legal precedent holds that there is an inherent right to free expression that goes along with a democratic system of government.

Again, no explicit "fourth amendment", but there are legal protections and guarantees vs unreasonable search, warrants required, etc..

Australia also guarantees, in law, the right to a fair trial.

Are you really going to argue Australia is "not free" because they don't specifically have these things in their Constitution?

No, Australia is pretty good if we concede guns.

But certainly not fecking Singapore and Hong Kong!

#51 the_stain

the_stain

    Phat O'Mic Chef Winner!

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 79497 posts

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:17 PM

But certainly not fecking Singapore and Hong Kong!


Fine, I'll concede those two. How about New Zealand? Switzerland?

Hell, it doesn't matter. If you'll concede that Australia could be called a free country, you've conceded that there's at least one other. :P
  • 0

#52 BrewerGeorge

BrewerGeorge

    His Royal Misinformed

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 33030 posts
  • LocationIndianapolis

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:20 PM

I'd have to do a little more research to see if they were putting people in jail for posting Nazi jokes online and confiscating scissors to be sure.

#53 the_stain

the_stain

    Phat O'Mic Chef Winner!

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 79497 posts

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:22 PM

I think it's fair to say that mass shootings aren't "the price" of free country; it seems more plausible that they're the price of a free country that is *also* full of guns.
  • 0

#54 BrewerGeorge

BrewerGeorge

    His Royal Misinformed

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 33030 posts
  • LocationIndianapolis

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:28 PM

Nah. Reductionism like that is tempting, but futile. We like neat packages, but people are complicated.

#55 the_stain

the_stain

    Phat O'Mic Chef Winner!

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 79497 posts

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:31 PM

Nah. Reductionism like that is tempting, but futile. We like neat packages, but people are complicated.


See, this is why we'll never solve this problem. I consider myself pro gun. But I also consider myself to be pro being honest with ourselves. But you and your side will never even consider that the easy access to guns we have in this country might contribute in any way to the gun violence problem. It's kind of absurd.
  • 0

#56 BrewerGeorge

BrewerGeorge

    His Royal Misinformed

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 33030 posts
  • LocationIndianapolis

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:34 PM

Huh? How'd you jump from "complicated" to absolutely nothing to do with it?

#57 the_stain

the_stain

    Phat O'Mic Chef Winner!

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 79497 posts

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:35 PM

Nah.


  • 0

#58 the_stain

the_stain

    Phat O'Mic Chef Winner!

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 79497 posts

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:38 PM


Obviously I don't advocate this, but what do you think the number of shootings would be in America if we had all the same freedoms except no 2A, and there were basically no guns in the country to begin with?

If your answer is "zero but there would be exactly the same number of fatal stabbings" I don't think you're being honest with yourself.
  • 0

#59 BrewerGeorge

BrewerGeorge

    His Royal Misinformed

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 33030 posts
  • LocationIndianapolis

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:44 PM

It's not about killing a bunch of people, it's about seizing power for otherwise powerless people. It's the same impulse that makes people believe crazy conspiracy theories crossed with lack of intuitive understanding of consequence.

#60 the_stain

the_stain

    Phat O'Mic Chef Winner!

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 79497 posts

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:48 PM

Avoiding the question.

All I'm saying is that the gun crowd often says we need to talk about solutions but they will never, no matter the effectiveness, talk about any solution that involves making it harder for people to get guns. That's got to be at least on the table for discussion.
  • 0


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users