13 replies to this topic

[consumptionjunction]

I wanted to repost a question of mine from the AHA's Yeast and Fermentation section:

In the How do we use Brett in the Brewhouse? section of this pdf, the author has a bullet on Orval, and how they add Brett to their beer before bottling without priming sugar. Has anyone ever tried this? I'd imagine that it would be best to mash really low to reduce the terminal gravity before adding the brett, but how low would we have to get it? Could we do this in the regular 12 ounce bottles? Would the brett take it all the way down to 1.000? If so, based on some calculations I've done, with the assumption that the 12 ounce bottles can only hold 4 volumes of CO2, we'd have to get the beer down to 1.0039! Orval's bottles seems much thicker (like most Belgian bottles), so I can see that they might do this and get away with bottling at a higher terminal gravity, but it doesn't seem easy for a homebrewer unless they collect a bunch of Belgian bottles.

Someone else replied with this:

I don't remember where, but I read somewhere that Orval is bottled around 1.008 and ferments down to as much as (I think) 1.004 or so. In my experience and again from what I've read brett won't superattenuate without additional bacteria in the mix. Don't exactly remember the science behind it, but the only beers I've gotten down to 1.000 have had mixed bacteria cultures - not just a secondary ferment with brettanomyces.

In like two months, I was hoping to have this figured out so that I may brew a Belgian-style amber, and prop up some Orval yeast to bottle condition with. It seems like a pretty neat method, and I really love Orval. Any thoughts out there?

[consumptionjunction]

It has also come to my attention that it might take much longer to prop up some Orval dregs than other Saccharomyces strains... Does anyone have experience doing this and any suggestions? I may just go ahead and get something from Wyeast instead...

[MtnBrewer]

It has also come to my attention that it might take much longer to prop up some Orval dregs than other Saccharomyces strains... Does anyone have experience doing this and any suggestions? I may just go ahead and get something from Wyeast instead...

I've propped bottle dregs before and it takes about a week. I've never done it with Brett though so that might take a little longer. Offhand I don't know what species of Brett Orval uses but it should be easy to find out. Then given that info buying a "pitchable" amount from either Wyeast or WL might be a better way to go.

[dondewey]

1.000 is an entirely arbitrary number, no?Also, I don't think the info in your first posts (no priming sugar) jives with what I've read.

[consumptionjunction]

1.000 is an entirely arbitrary number, no?Also, I don't think the info in your first posts (no priming sugar) jives with what I've read.

What have you read?

[cavman]

Brett is going to take months to carb a beer, some of the ideas in your quotes were just strange as well. I mean mash low, so the beer finishes low and the brett takes it lower still? What's the goal here,extremely dry beer? I've used wine yeast on a Ocean spray mead thing that went below 1.000 but that was expected. Would I want a beer that dry? No.

[siouxbrewer]

When I want to add brett to beer I culture the dregs of a bottle or two of orval and then pitch into secondary. One actually wants a higher mash temp so there are some complex sugars available for the brett to chew on during the extended fermentation. One will see airlock activity that could last a couple months depending on the OG. When it's time to bottle, prime and/or yeast the beer and bottle like you would anything else. Give the bottles a little extra time to carb up. I've read that Orval doesn't use a pure brett strain. They are actually critters floating around the Belgian country side similar to the Saisons that are produced in the area. FWIW Orval has more Saison-like characteristics, probably due to geography, compared to the other Trappist beers.

[consumptionjunction]

Brett is going to take months to carb a beer,

I know, and don't really care. From what I read, it should be about three months.

some of the ideas in your quotes were just strange as well I mean mash low, so the beer finishes low and the brett takes it lower still? What's the goal here, [an] extremely dry beer? I've used wine yeast on a Ocean spray mead thing that went below 1.000 but that was expected. Would I want a beer that dry? No.

The goal is not to have an extremely dry beer, though I'd expect that from the belgian-somewhat-sour-style. I'm not certain that brett will take it all the way to 1.000, but, as a thought experiment, I wanted to make sure that, if it did, I wouldn't have bottle bombs. My thoughts were more directed towards my bottling concerns. Once I figured that out, I was going to go back and craft a beer around my limitations. I'm currently collecting some of the thicker belgian bottles so that I don't have to worry about this. I'd be able to have a terminal gravity around 1.011, I believe, and it would be okay.

When I want to add brett to beer I culture the dregs of a bottle or two of orval and then pitch into secondary. One actually wants a higher mash temp so there are some complex sugars available for the brett to chew on during the extended fermentation. One will see airlock activity that could last a couple months depending on the OG. When it's time to bottle, prime and/or yeast the beer and bottle like you would anything else. Give the bottles a little extra time to carb up. I've read that Orval doesn't use a pure brett strain. They are actually critters floating around the Belgian country side similar to the Saisons that are produced in the area. FWIW Orval has more Saison-like characteristics, probably due to geography, compared to the other Trappist beers.

Thanks for the info. That's pretty much what I thought most people did when using brett. I figured I could do that, but thought this might be a neat and simpler alternative. However, after reading Orval's website, I was left with a second impressions about Orval's process -- they do utilize a secondary where they add their "wild cultures" and fresh hops before bottling. I'm going to email Greg Doss, the author of that pdf in the original post, to get a better idea about what I should expect before going through with my simplified version -- the version he led me to believe would work. I'll be sure to make an update to the thread when I find out more.

[strangebrewer]

Prop up brett like you do any other yeast. Treat Brett Like you do saccharomyces and it will act just like saccharomyces. Adding it into secondary will cause a long slow secondary fermentation of any remaining complex sugars left in the beer. How long? well that depends on what's left for Brett to scavenge. Orval has been making beer for a little while so they know exactly what their fermentation will do. I'd never try and imitate that process unless i was ready to deal with some exploding bottles.Personally if I was going to make an Orval I'd pitch the brett and the saccharomyces at the same time at the start and do a normal primary and extended secondary. If the original way is what your after I'd pitch it with the dry hops and give it a couple months to finish the secondary ferment. Then I'd prime and bottle like I do anything else.As siouxbrewer said the Brett Orval uses is their own. From my experience Brett B is the closest commercially available but definitely not exactly the same.

[consumptionjunction]

Prop up brett like you do any other yeast. Treat Brett Like you do saccharomyces and it will act just like saccharomyces. Adding it into secondary will cause a long slow secondary fermentation of any remaining complex sugars left in the beer. How long? well that depends on what's left for Brett to scavenge. Orval has been making beer for a little while so they know exactly what their fermentation will do. I'd never try and imitate that process unless i was ready to deal with some exploding bottles.Personally if I was going to make an Orval I'd pitch the brett and the saccharomyces at the same time at the start and do a normal primary and extended secondary. If the original way is what your after I'd pitch it with the dry hops and give it a couple months to finish the secondary ferment. Then I'd prime and bottle like I do anything else.As siouxbrewer said the Brett Orval uses is their own. From my experience Brett B is the closest commercially available but definitely not exactly the same.

I think I may start with this conservative approach; do a primary with the Ardennes strain and secondary with Brett B in my bottling bucket (and get a new BB). The only problem is that I can't really keep temperatures below 75F, if I plan on aging this over 2 months in the bucket. It's getting colder in Miami (just hit 66F last night!). But it's already up to 78 again right now, and likely won't stay cool for long. What could I expect from temperatures in the 75-80F range?

[dondewey]

What have you read?

In Brew Like a Monk, it says they primary for 4 days at 57 to 72F, then secondary for 3 weeks at 59F with a mixed culture that includes brett, then centrifuge, then add sugar (5 volumes) and the primary yeast for bottle conditioning (but some brett remains) for 5 weeks at 59F.

[Jimmy James]

Personally if I was going to make an Orval I'd pitch the brett and the saccharomyces at the same time at the start and do a normal primary and extended secondary. If the original way is what your after I'd pitch it with the dry hops and give it a couple months to finish the secondary ferment. Then I'd prime and bottle like I do anything else.As siouxbrewer said the Brett Orval uses is their own. From my experience Brett B is the closest commercially available but definitely not exactly the same.

+1 on this advice. I've also had good results fermenting with yeast down to say 1.022ish and then adding the dregs of a 10oz bottle of brett to the carboy. This worked pretty good and took an Orval-ish brew I did down to about 1.009 where I bottled with about enough priming sugar for 2.5 volumes and after about 6 months in the bottle I'd say there was about 3.5 vols of carbonation. Just be sure to use bottles that can handle higher pressures.

[strangebrewer]

+1 on this advice. I've also had good results fermenting with yeast down to say 1.022ish and then adding the dregs of a 10oz bottle of brett to the carboy. This worked pretty good and took an Orval-ish brew I did down to about 1.009 where I bottled with about enough priming sugar for 2.5 volumes and after about 6 months in the bottle I'd say there was about 3.5 vols of carbonation. Just be sure to use bottles that can handle higher pressures.

This jives with what I've experienced with Brett as well. My Brett beers have all finished right about 1.006.

[consumptionjunction]

I just got an email back from Greg Doss, of Wyeast. My email basically asked him about the contradiction in Orval's procedure between the bullets on his pdf and Orval's website. I also asked him about the attenuative abilities of their Brett strains, and whether I could do a primary, add brett to the beer, and bottle (in either normal or thicker bottles) without priming sugar, and without risking bottle bombs. This is his response:

My information on Orval bottling cell count and procedure came from a lecture given by the Brew master in 2006. He stated that they bottle conditioned by pitching Brett at 5000 cells/ ml. and let it naturally carbonate by consuming residual sugars left over from the primary. This always seemed odd to me (low cell count and inconsistent sugar levels), but it was stated. Your information (Orval website) of adding priming sugar seems like a much more realistic approach for consistent bottle conditioning. There will be no problem in bottle conditioning your beer with Bret. Our 5526 B. lambicus will attenuate the beer ~0.5-1.0 P past the primary (Saccharomyces) terminal gravity. 5112 will not attenuate the beer much further than the primary (Saccharomyces) terminal gravity. Take this into consideration when calculating priming sugar. You can pitch 5 gal of beer with 30-40 ml of our packaged Brett slurry to achieve 1-1.5 million cells per ml. I prefer this pitch rate to the 5000 cells per ml. stated in the lecture. This will result in decent carbonation and Brett character in ~ 4 weeks. Alternatively, you can pitch a full package of Brett into a primary or secondary fermentation and bottle after you achieve the desired level of Brett character. I hope that this helps. Cheers, Greg

It somewhat helps. For instance, if you don't pitch enough healthy yeast in the primary, you may not reach an "appropriate" terminal gravity, and may get much more attenuation from the Brett. Or, if you mash really high, you'll likely have much more long-chain dextrins left for the Brett. Anyways, I think I'm just going to do a primary and secondary with Brett B in a bucket for a little while before bottling, as advised by everyone here, at least until I get more experienced with Brett.