22 replies to this topic

[cj in j]

Hey guys, a buddy of mine has a blog about beer in Japan, and he recently asked the question, "What makes a "Japanese Beer" or a "Japanese Brewer"?" It's something that I've never really thought much about, and certainly haven't read about on any homebrew forum. Some interesting comments so far, but I'm just wondering what do you think? What makes a "Japanese Beer" or a "Japanese Brewer"?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Hey guys, a buddy of mine has a blog about beer in Japan, and he recently asked the question, "What makes a "Japanese Beer" or a "Japanese Brewer"?" It's something that I've never really thought much about, and certainly haven't read about on any homebrew forum. Some interesting comments so far, but I'm just wondering what do you think? What makes a "Japanese Beer" or a "Japanese Brewer"?

I think you are appealing to a pretty small group here with this question. I'm pretty borderline not caring. When Japan comes up with it's own distinctive styles only then will we have Japanese beer. Do any styles have their roots in Japan?

[cj in j]

I think you are appealing to a pretty small group here with this question. I'm pretty borderline not caring. When Japan comes up with it's own distinctive styles only then will we have Japanese beer. Do any styles have their roots in Japan?

That's part of the debate. But, are the roots of a style really relevant?Gordon Biersch mostly makes excellent German-style beers -- are they an American brewery? Or a German brewery? After all, Dan Gordon studied brewing in Germany and uses mostly German ingredients. Sounds like a German brewery to me. Of course, if you and I were sipping on beers in a pub, that would be a ridiculous argument for me to make, and I don't think that anyone would seriously suggest that Gordon Biersch was anything but an American brewery.You are right, it's not something that most Americans would think about, which is why I posted it. Really, what makes an XYZ [<-- insert country name] beer?

[MtnBrewer]

It's a good question, CJ. I think your boy is on the right track with this last sentence:

For me, a Japanese beer is one made here in Japan with the spirit, pride, and passion of this country. For sure Japanese beer abounds. Even breweries like Kirin, and Asahi (who we give a hard time) are making a quality product that Japanese people can be proud of. (For those who don't believe me, check out how much a "premium" 6 pack of Asahi costs back in the states!) But besides this, this country is full of brewers who are pushing the limits and making Japanese beer. Beers with Mikans, green tea, miso, yuzu, fish, shiso, and many other Japanese fruits are all inventions of Japan.

Beer is European in origin. Most beer made around the world is a derivative of some style found somewhere in Europe. America has been producing beer long enough to not only produce "Americanized" versions of European beers but to also come up with some unique styles of its own. I think a Japanese beer should express some unique Japanese quality that's found nowhere else. If that means using Japanese ingredients, that would be one way to do it. A new Japanese style would be another but people rarely set out on a mission to create a new style. They just sort of happen organically (steam beer as an example).

[ncbeerbrewer]

I agree with the posts above in regards to this topic. My opinion is that all beer has origins in Europe but a Japanese beer can be one made by a passionate person residing in Japan and using Japanese ingredients if the brewer so chooses. There is no real style that is Japan or even American in most regards but I think that they can be either one depending on where they are brewed. I thought it was interesting the author's comment about choosing Japan beer when in Japan. I feel that I would prefer most any American beer to most (except Belgian) european or well traveled beer just due to freshness. An interesting topic though I say too.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

That's part of the debate. But, are the roots of a style really relevant?Gordon Biersch mostly makes excellent German-style beers -- are they an American brewery? Or a German brewery? After all, Dan Gordon studied brewing in Germany and uses mostly German ingredients. Sounds like a German brewery to me. Of course, if you and I were sipping on beers in a pub, that would be a ridiculous argument for me to make, and I don't think that anyone would seriously suggest that Gordon Biersch was anything but an American brewery.You are right, it's not something that most Americans would think about, which is why I posted it. Really, what makes an XYZ [<-- insert country name] beer?

They are an American brewery making German beer.

[Deerslyr]

Hey guys, a buddy of mine has a blog about beer in Japan, and he recently asked the question, "What makes a "Japanese Beer" or a "Japanese Brewer"?" It's something that I've never really thought much about, and certainly haven't read about on any homebrew forum. Some interesting comments so far, but I'm just wondering what do you think? What makes a "Japanese Beer" or a "Japanese Brewer"?

Hey CJ! Been a while since I've seen you in here. Hope the new job is treating you well. I don't know the absolute answer to your questions, but answering what a "Japanese Brewer" is seems to be very straightforward... to me it would be a brewer either in Japan or from Japan that brings the work ethic of Japan into the brewery. I know that seems pretty base, but I've got to think that you can be an American brewer in Japan, operating your brewery no different than if you were in say, San Jose. But if you are an American brewer in Japan and you adopt general work ethics found throughout all businesses in Japan, then I call you a Japanese Brewer. Does this make sense.The other question is harder to answer. And as hard as ti may seem, the question was "What makes Japanese beer", and not about style per se. I may be splitting hairs, but I do find that the beers brewed in Japan tend to have a crisper edge to them. When I go into an Japanese restaurant, I'll order a Sapporo. It doesn't seem right to order an American/European/whatever beer. Just like, when I go into a Mexican restaurant, I'll order Negro Modelo. To me, where it is produced helps me define it generally, but not necessarily define its style. It may be a European lager recipe produced in Japan, and to me that makes it a Japanese beer.For what its worth, I don't think Japan has anything to worry about in the realm of fermentable drinks. They are, after all, the ones that brought us saki. No, it's not a beer. I wouldn't necessarily call it a wine either (even though people call it Rice Wine), but it is a truly exceptional drink. I wouldn't worry about the contribution of a style to the beer world. Just keep on brewing.

[cj in j]

Hey CJ! Been a while since I've seen you in here. Hope the new job is treating you well. Just keep on brewing.

I'm doing great -- love the new job, even the days where we do nothing but clean!And brewing is what I do, I have no intention of stopping any time soon!!!

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I'm doing great -- love the new job, even the days where we do nothing but clean!And brewing is what I do, I have no intention of stopping any time soon!!!

keep doing what you're doing. I remember a while back you mentioned living right near the brewery - is this still the case? Care to share any pictures of the neighborhood?

[MtnBrewer]

keep doing what you're doing. I remember a while back you mentioned living right near the brewery - is this still the case? Care to share any pictures of the neighborhood?

:stalker:

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

:stalker:

I'm only a 20 hour flight away!! muhahahahahaha!but seriously - I'm just interested to see what life is like where CJ is at. Seems like a different planet to me...

[cj in j]

I'm only a 20 hour flight away!! muhahahahahaha!but seriously - I'm just interested to see what life is like where CJ is at. Seems like a different planet to me...

It is a different planet. I'll get some recent pics compiled and post them later in another thread. I have some pretty good photos of the brewery as well as some interesting ones of the area around.

[Deerslyr]

I'm doing great -- love the new job, even the days where we do nothing but clean!And brewing is what I do, I have no intention of stopping any time soon!!!

Can I officially say "I'm jealous"? Living in a foreign, 1st world country. Technology and History all around you. Mountains... ocean... doing a job you love... Do you ever just pinch yourself and just say "it just doesn't get any better"?

[cj in j]

Do you ever just pinch yourself and just say "it just doesn't get any better"?

I used to, but as I get older, I find I bruise a lot easier than I used to, so I just drink a toast to my good fortune these days.

[chuck_d]

I haven't read your link yet CJ, but one thing that immediately came to mind is dealing with the weird laws of the country in which you brew. A German brewer must deal with the Reinheitsgebot which obviously impacts the process of producing beer and which ingredients can be used. Out there in Japan I'm sure you know all about the "third beer", which is again just getting around weird laws. In the United States, American brewers must deal with weird laws as well, the most obvious is distribution and sale, but beer production is regulated here like both food and alcohol production with layers upon layers of laws from the Federal level down to extremely local.

[japh]

A German brewer must deal with the Reinheitsgebot which obviously impacts the process of producing beer and which ingredients can be used.

Sadly, the Reinheitsgebot was found to be against some EU thing, and is no longer in effect. Longest running law, down the tubes.

[MtnBrewer]

Sadly, the Reinheitsgebot was found to be against some EU thing, and is no longer in effect. Longest running law, down the tubes.

While it served its purpose, it was probably time for it to go. On the one hand, it insured that Germany would never produce something like Budweiser (the American kind) but on the other, it tied brewers' hands and stifled creativity.

[zymot]

Biggest thing about Japanese beer is they brew from right to left.

[Spoon]

I would say if the brewery in located in Japan, deals w/ all the local laws, taxes, licensing, ect. Then it is a Japanese Brewery regardless of what style they produce. Same the brewer, unless they are expates.But what about the SanJ company who make Tamari in Richmond, VA. It is owned by the Japanese, but located in the US and staffed by US employees. Is it a Japanese brewery?SanJ

[cj in j]

Sadly, the Reinheitsgebot was found to be against some EU thing, and is no longer in effect. Longest running law, down the tubes.

From what I've heard, though, most if not all German brewers still follow the old law -- it's just that now beers that aren't "pure" are sold in Germany. And that's the way it should be -- no law, just guys making good beer.

Biggest thing about Japanese beer is they brew from right to left.

Damn, that's hilarious! And, if I think about our brewery, it's kind of true. Top to bottom as well.

I would say if the brewery in located in Japan, deals w/ all the local laws, taxes, licensing, ect. Then it is a Japanese Brewery regardless of what style they produce. Same the brewer, unless they are expates.

Exactly my thinking. In Baird Brewing, there are two brewers from America (me and the co-owner/co-founder) and two from Japan. While Bryan and I are not naturalized J-citizens, we are permanent residents who have no plan to move back to the US -- we're here for life.

But what about the SanJ company who make Tamari in Richmond, VA. It is owned by the Japanese, but located in the US and staffed by US employees. Is it a Japanese brewery?SanJ

In this case, the mother company is not based in the US and the owners are not US residents -- that makes it a much more difficult case. Kind of like the Toyotas and Nissans and Hondas that are made elsewhere -- are they still Japanese cars? Or the GMs or Fords (or previously Chryslers) that were made in Canada or Mexico -- are they still US cars?