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Hey drez!


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#1 denny

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 02:54 PM

You're a mega dry hopper.  Seen this yet?

 

https://patspints.co...om-shellhammer/


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#2 HVB

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 03:31 PM

I have to finish reading when I get a free minute but from what I read it is falling into what I have noticed in practice. 1oz/g seems to be a good spot these days. I will hit the beer with an early, small dose, but my main dh is about 5oz of late.

Thanks for posting this.
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#3 Zsasz

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 05:34 PM

what about if I'm doing multiple rounds of dry hopping? ???  this is timely.


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#4 HVB

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 08:14 PM

what about if I'm doing multiple rounds of dry hopping? ??? this is timely.


I guess it depends on the type of hopping and end goal. I find ddh different than a biotransform addition along with a second larger addition. For me, a ddh beer (double dry hop) will have two equal doses one towards the end of fermentation and one more a few days after where the other has a small dose right as fermentation begins and a larger one at the end. Both types may have the same weight of hops but the final beer is different.
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#5 Zsasz

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 05:32 AM

I guess it depends on the type of hopping and end goal. I find ddh different than a biotransform addition along with a second larger addition. For me, a ddh beer (double dry hop) will have two equal doses one towards the end of fermentation and one more a few days after where the other has a small dose right as fermentation begins and a larger one at the end. Both types may have the same weight of hops but the final beer is different.

 

right but does this all count towards the ~1oz/gal dry hopping rate?

 

If I were to put 4oz in the primary (10 gal) would that mean I generally shouldn't be hopping more than 3oz per 5 gal keg? (total 1oz/gal overall)

 

if the worst thing was just wasting a little bit of hops okay.  but if hopping too much actually starts to mess up the beer....  well that would be sad.


Edited by pickle_rick, 19 January 2019 - 05:37 AM.

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#6 HVB

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 06:44 AM

right but does this all count towards the ~1oz/gal dry hopping rate?

 

If I were to put 4oz in the primary (10 gal) would that mean I generally shouldn't be hopping more than 3oz per 5 gal keg? (total 1oz/gal overall)

 

if the worst thing was just wasting a little bit of hops okay.  but if hopping too much actually starts to mess up the beer....  well that would be sad.

 

The early hops are similar to a WP addition.  You actually will see a biotransform effect from the oils left in the wort from a large WP.  I would do the real (second) dh at the 1-1.5g/oz dosage.


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#7 Zsasz

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 07:38 AM

The early hops are similar to a WP addition.  You actually will see a biotransform effect from the oils left in the wort from a large WP.  I would do the real (second) dh at the 1-1.5g/oz dosage.

 

good to know.  reworking dry hopping schedule...


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#8 denny

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:54 AM

what about if I'm doing multiple rounds of dry hopping? ???  this is timely.

 

may not have much value


I guess it depends on the type of hopping and end goal. I find ddh different than a biotransform addition along with a second larger addition. For me, a ddh beer (double dry hop) will have two equal doses one towards the end of fermentation and one more a few days after where the other has a small dose right as fermentation begins and a larger one at the end. Both types may have the same weight of hops but the final beer is different.

 

FWIW, Shellhammer says there is no biotransformation.


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#9 Zsasz

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 10:11 AM

may not have much value


 

FWIW, Shellhammer says there is no biotransformation.

 

so the reports of primary dry hopping bringing something different to the table are incorrect?  or is something other than biotransformation going on?


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#10 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 10:19 AM

so the reports of primary dry hopping bringing something different to the table are incorrect? or is something other than biotransformation going on?


Sounds like dry hopping during the end of active fermentation might be beneficial to the fg as well as prevent diacetyl problems due to dry hopping while there is yeast present.
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#11 neddles

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 11:29 AM

so the reports of primary dry hopping bringing something different to the table are incorrect? or is something other than biotransformation going on?

My personal theory is that it is something else. I can get those flavors by dry hopping a beer after setting a chill haze at low temp. The downside is that you will lose them if you warm the beer and the haze goes away.
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#12 HVB

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 12:42 PM

may not have much value


FWIW, Shellhammer says there is no biotransformation.


So the Sabaro research was wrong? Thought that is where it came from. I think it is only related to certain yeast and I feel that it can muddle the hops at times.
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#13 denny

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 02:35 PM

so the reports of primary dry hopping bringing something different to the table are incorrect?  or is something other than biotransformation going on?

 

According to Shellhammer, there is no such thing as biotransformation


So the Sabaro research was wrong? Thought that is where it came from. I think it is only related to certain yeast and I feel that it can muddle the hops at times.

 

Based on personal communication with him, all I can say is that he thinks of biotransformation as sketchy.  And that's not a very good description of his thoughts.  I hope to get him on the podcast.


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#14 HVB

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 03:40 PM

Was there research done by SN on this topic? I thought they did something with changing flavors when hops interact with yeast.

Honestly I have no dog in this fight. I don't add them all the time these days mainly because it am lazy. I know Monkish puts out great beers (from what hear) and he hops at the end of fermentation and does not do a early hop.

Anyway research on this is good imo.
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#15 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 04:54 PM

What the hell is biotransformation?


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#16 HVB

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 05:04 PM

What the hell is biotransformation?

When hops are added during active fermentation to achieve flavors those hops do not produce when active yeast is not present.

It is common foe brewing NE style beers.

Edited by drez77, 19 January 2019 - 05:05 PM.

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#17 denny

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 11:37 AM

I can tell you that Shellhamer's work has got me rethinking dry hopping in the keg.


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#18 Zsasz

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 01:42 PM

I can tell you that Shellhamer's work has got me rethinking dry hopping in the keg.

 

why?


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#19 denny

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 02:03 PM

why?

 

He seems to be saying that not on;ly can long dry hopping be needless, it can also be detrimental.  Produces earthy flavors.  Gotta read the article again.


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#20 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 02:12 PM

When hops are added during active fermentation to achieve flavors those hops do not produce when active yeast is not present.

It is common foe brewing NE style beers.

 

It would only be biotransformation (according to the definition) if the hops caused a chemical alteration internally to the yeast cells during fermentation.

 

He seems to be saying that not on;ly can long dry hopping be needless, it can also be detrimental.  Produces earthy flavors.  Gotta read the article again.

 

Yeah, I could see that, but only if you leave the hops in the keg. I never could get myself to leave them in longer than a week or so.


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