19 replies to this topic

[consumptionjunction]

I'm brewing a dubbel in a few weeks, and was considering adding a little bit of oak chips towards the end of primary fermentation for an added complexity. I would want the flavor to be faint and barely noticeable.Here's my recipe so far:

87% Maris Otter (it's not a Belgian Pilsner malt, obviously, but all I've got on hand as a base malt)6.45% D2 Candy Sugar3.23% Caramunich1.61% Special B1.61% Chocolate Wheat Malt

Mash at 150. About 1.069 OG and 22 IBUs from some 60 minute addition.I plan on getting either medium toast American or French oak chips. I've heard the American ones are more aggressive, which makes me want to stay away from them, though I've also heard they have a nice vanilla component, which makes me want to use them...What is the Board's impression on either American or French, how much should be used in a five gallon batch, and for how long for my desired effect? I can't keg, so adding them to the keg and sampling until I've reached a desired profile is not really possible.

[jayb151]

I think jkarvos did a thread like this about a month ago...Anyway, I would say skip the chips and try some cubes, If you can get some. I feel that they offer more compexity, and for a dubble you want that. I have used Dark American cubes and I think I get a very "raw oak" charater when used too much. I also get a kind of vanilla aswell as other dark, roasty flavors.

[consumptionjunction]

I found JKarvos' thread on oaking a RIS. Strange this only came up when I did a search for "cubes," and not "oak." In fact, nothing came up in the search for "oak." Too many search results I guess... Thanks, jayb151, I'll read through that.

[strangebrewer]

For a dubbel I wouldn't touch American oak. In all its form its way to oaky/woody for a beer where malt/caramel/fruit esters are supposed to play the primary role. I'd go cubes, medium toast, and French or Hungarian. French and Hungarian both will impart less oak wood flavor than American while still contributing to mouth feel. Hungarian IMO will give more vanilla which can be over the top so be careful with that one while French will give more of the fruit/raisin like flavors. All depends on what you are after.If you've got patience I'd start with half an ounce of the oak of your choice. Taste it weekly and pull it when it hits where you want. If its not where you want after 2-3 weeks then add another quarter of an ounce. If you over oak there is no going back. Blending is your only option.

[consumptionjunction]

I'm sure most people would oak in their secondary, but would it be just as good to add the oak just after high-krausen in the primary? That would be for about 2-3 weeks. I don't usually secondary and only have one carboy.

[consumptionjunction]

It sounds like a blend of oak cubes might be nice. Maybe .75 oz French medium toast and .5 oz of Hungarian medium toast for about 2 weeks? Or would this just muddle the flavor?

[strangebrewer]

It sounds like a blend of oak cubes might be nice. Maybe .75 oz French medium toast and .5 oz of Hungarian medium toast for about 2 weeks? Or would this just muddle the flavor?

I don't see any issues with mixing and matching. Again be careful with the quantity unless you are going to taste frequently and are ready to move it on a moments notice.

[gnef]

A blend would definitely be nice, but like strangebrewer cautioned, I think those amounts you are thinking of is too much. I only use oak on beers that can handle the complexity, and then I only use 3/4oz to 1oz, but this is for beers that are in the 10+ range (barleywines and DIPAs). For a smaller beer, I wouldn't go more than .5 oz at first. If you need another carboy, this could be an opportunity for you to get another carboy so you can do experiments like this more often in the future.What is interesting about oak, is that you get different flavors depending on how long the oak is in contact with the beer. If you oak too much at the forefront, you will only get the tannic oak flavors and char, which is great if that is what you want. That isn't all I want from oak though, I prefer the more complex flavors, so I oak less, and will keep the oak in the keg until the very end, and it will continue to impart more complex flavors as the beer ages with the oak in it.I do the same thing with my meads, and will try doing it with my ciders as well.

[consumptionjunction]

A blend would definitely be nice, but like strangebrewer cautioned, I think those amounts you are thinking of is too much. I only use oak on beers that can handle the complexity, and then I only use 3/4oz to 1oz, but this is for beers that are in the 10+ range (barleywines and DIPAs). For a smaller beer, I wouldn't go more than .5 oz at first. If you need another carboy, this could be an opportunity for you to get another carboy so you can do experiments like this more often in the future.What is interesting about oak, is that you get different flavors depending on how long the oak is in contact with the beer. If you oak too much at the forefront, you will only get the tannic oak flavors and char, which is great if that is what you want. That isn't all I want from oak though, I prefer the more complex flavors, so I oak less, and will keep the oak in the keg until the very end, and it will continue to impart more complex flavors as the beer ages with the oak in it.I do the same thing with my meads, and will try doing it with my ciders as well.

Thanks, I'll definitely keep this in mind, and would prefer the more complex flavors you speak of. My beer will be about 7-7.25%, depending on attenuation. What do you think using about 5 oz (3 french and 2 hungarian) for three weeks? In your experience, after three weeks in the keg with about this much oak, what could I expect?

[gnef]

is that 5 oz or .5oz?

[siouxbrewer]

Have you brewed a dubbel previously and found it lacking in some sense? Just trying to figure out the oak inspiration. I'm not a fan of adding wood to beers and dubbels have enough complexity where I don't think they need oak. That's just my lousy opinion.

[consumptionjunction]

is that 5 oz or .5oz?

Oops. Yeah, .5 oz. Typed that quickly before my computer died.

[consumptionjunction]

Have you brewed a dubbel previously and found it lacking in some sense? Just trying to figure out the oak inspiration. I'm not a fan of adding wood to beers and dubbels have enough complexity where I don't think they need oak. That's just my lousy opinion.

I brewed a dubbel a while back while I was still doing extract, and it didn't turn out that great. But truly my inspiration is in the fact that I've had many commercial dubbels, but none with the oak character. I've also had a bunch of sours recently, many of which have come with an oak flavor, and wanted to try it on one of my recent brews. I thought a belgian dubbel might be a nice opportunity. I really don't want much oak character, just an underlying tone as a complement, which is why I'm trying to be as cautionary as possible.

[siouxbrewer]

I brewed a dubbel a while back while I was still doing extract, and it didn't turn out that great. But truly my inspiration is in the fact that I've had many commercial dubbels, but none with the oak character. I've also had a bunch of sours recently, many of which have come with an oak flavor, and wanted to try it on one of my recent brews. I thought a belgian dubbel might be a nice opportunity. I really don't want much oak character, just an underlying tone as a complement, which is why I'm trying to be as cautionary as possible.

This makes sense. I was just wondering because I've never done such a thing, not saying that it could not be done with good results. I think you are right erring on the side of caution, subtlety is the key

[gnef]

the blend for .5 oz sounds interesting. Your plan should be good. I would definitely taste it every week though to make sure it is to your liking. Let us know how it turns out!

[harryfrog]

gnef's suggestion of oaking while kegging sounds like a good one - that way you don't need another carboy (assuming you keg) - you could oak in a bag that could be removed when the beer hits the point you like it.on beers that i've wanted oak, i've also like bourbon, and have just oaked the bourbon and added that to taste. it's satisfied my tastes (so far)...

[consumptionjunction]

Since reflecting on all the advice from this Board, I listened to Shea Comfort on the Sunday Session, and wanted to talk a few more things through. Shea mentioned that there was a noticeable difference between oaking during fermentation and oaking after fermentation in the keg as gnef has mentioned. Brewcaster J commented that he wouldn't have even thought there was oak in the beer had he not tasted the "oak teas" earlier in the Session. Shea credited this effect to (loosely quoting) "some melding effect from the yeast in fermentation," and the fact that the yeast metabolizes the vanilla components from the oak, leaving a subtle spice, finish, and structuring ability -- whatever structuring ability is -- and without the caramel tones in the finish that you might have experienced had you just put the oak in the keg. Has anyone experienced this difference?Shea also mentioned that, when putting oak in the fermenter, he used 1 oz per every five gallons; however, he neglected to mention how long his fermentations are. His fermentations might be faster than mine -- I usually ferment for at least three weeks before bottling (without a secondary). If you've done this, what's your thoughts on letting it sit in fermentation for more than two to three weeks?I think I might add .75 oz (.5 oz french and .25 oz hungarian, or maybe just all french. All medium toast.) in the primary right at the beginning of fermentation, and leave it until I have to bottle. I may get another carboy from a friend and rack it into secondary if it tastes overwhelming sooner.Any thoughts on all this? P.S. Thanks Stout_Fan for pointing out that podcast. I am trying to listen to them sequentially, from the beginning, and wouldn't have seen this episode for a while.

[gnef]

That sounds pretty interesting to me. I've never done it, so report back if you try it and tell us how it turned out.

[harryfrog]

worst thing that'll happen is you'll have to back blend the beer to get something you want - so I say go for it!

[HoppingFrog Brewing]

I use French oak chips in my Oak Porter I won best of show with it I use 2 oz per 5 gal.The beer picks up a distinct dry oak flavor compaired to a red table wine (? caberna soven ????. For a belgum i would reduce it to 1.5 oz even though the higher alc of yours will cover the oak.I put the oak in the keg for the life of the beer. you could go for 2 weeks as after about a week or so the flavor only mellows.