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#1 Genesee Ted

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 03:31 PM

Is there any real science dedicated to this? By that I mean like Siebel or UC David or the like? Real scientific brewing research, not backyard science? I’m not trying to discredit this stuff, I’m genuinely interested.

#2 HVB

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 05:06 PM

Lots of German references along with others. I have no input on how scientific they are.

http://www.lowoxygen...ing-references/

I think there are a couple AHA presentations but I have to look for them.
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#3 ER Pemberton

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 05:47 PM

They do seem to lean towards German texts and German references to low-oxygen breweries being the best examples of German beer.  The guys on that board also suggest that low-O2 benefits all styles.  I generally don't like to defend it because it doesn't seem like it needs to be defended but these guys are ALL about the science... at least that's how they back up their information.  Some of the guys are engineers and have thought about the low-O2 processes and equipment right down to the smallest detail.  They have conducted experiments and used a lot of fancy gadgetry not only to back up but also to understand exactly what they're seeing.  The group on that board agrees that some of the thinking is still fluid when it comes to some of it... things have been tweaked and tested to get the best results without any negative issues.  Also, some of the brewers there conform to the system better and some are a little more laid back about it... the laid back guys might tell you that you can start with [this] and don't worry about [that] just yet... get your feet wet and then work in the rest of it later.  Go read some of the blog material.  



#4 HVB

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 06:20 PM

I just do not see a low-O2 English ale coming across right. I get it for delicate lagers and agree 100% on the cold side but I am still not sure if it is for me on all beers. I admit the beers are different but I am not sure I like them different.
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#5 ER Pemberton

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 06:26 PM

I just do not see a low-O2 English ale coming across right. I get it for delicate lagers and agree 100% on the cold side but I am still not sure if it is for me on all beers. I admit the beers are different but I am not sure I like them different.

So this is one reason why I recently went back to full low-O2 with a spund... because I was able to get 5.25 gallons of clear wort into the fermenter so there's nothing in there except wort and yeast.  This should make the spund better and it should make the finished product as good (and hopefully clear) as it can be on my system.  I now have three recently-brewed spunded beers in kegs and there will be two more by next week (an amber lager, a gold lager, a dark lager, a west coast lager and a Czech Pils).  That should give me a good cross-section of styles... pale, medium, dark, malty, hoppy, etc.  If they come out well, I think I have a good road map to go forward.  If for some reason I don't care for the finished product, I may not blame low-O2... I may just conclude that I liked my "lower-O2" beers better.  



#6 Zsasz

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 07:31 PM

I make no effort to get clear wort into the fermenter and my last light colored lager is Crystal clear. I don't think it matters if trub gets in there when it comes to clarity.
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#7 HVB

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 08:16 PM

I make no effort to get clear wort into the fermenter and my last light colored lager is Crystal clear. I don't think it matters if trub gets in there when it comes to clarity.


I thinks it does for their process where you move it a few points before fg to spund. I get clear with my process when I finish, cold crash and transfer but not when I do the spunding process.
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#8 Zsasz

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 04:38 AM

I thinks it does for their process where you move it a few points before fg to spund. I get clear with my process when I finish, cold crash and transfer but not when I do the spunding process.

 

I spund in primary and then let things settle before I rack to the serving purged serving kegs.


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#9 HVB

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 04:45 AM

I spund in primary and then let things settle before I rack to the serving purged serving kegs.


I still think that is going to result in a difference over moving before finished and then spund and serve from the same keg. My normal process involves partially carbonating naturally in the fermenter and for me that just works better. But, it may be my bias :)
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#10 Zsasz

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 10:47 AM

I still think that is going to result in a difference over moving before finished and then spund and serve from the same keg. My normal process involves partially carbonating naturally in the fermenter and for me that just works better. But, it may be my bias :)


Why would it be different? Don't you often jump from keg to Keg after dry hopping? Not really any different than that.
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#11 denny

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 11:02 AM

I just do not see a low-O2 English ale coming across right. I get it for delicate lagers and agree 100% on the cold side but I am still not sure if it is for me on all beers. I admit the beers are different but I am not sure I like them different.

 

That's been verified by my friend, Jeff Rankert.  He's done quite a bit if experimenting with low O2 and found that a lot of styles just don't taste right done like that.


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#12 HVB

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 11:58 AM

Why would it be different? Don't you often jump from keg to Keg after dry hopping? Not really any different than that.

I no longer do the serving keg jump since I use floating diptubes. All I know is that the two methods act differently for me when I do them. I have tried it both ways.

Edited by drez77, 19 December 2018 - 11:58 AM.

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#13 Zsasz

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 01:56 PM

That's been verified by my friend, Jeff Rankert. He's done quite a bit if experimenting with low O2 and found that a lot of styles just don't taste right done like that.


Any examples? I only try to avoid o2 on the child side for the most part.
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#14 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 09:45 PM

It only makes sense for styles that don't benefit from oxidation related flavors. Beers that are all malt and low hops, low yeast character, or are "soft" and "delicate" will benefit. Obviously german pale lagers fall into this category since there's very rigid and specific flavors one would want and expect in the beer. IPA, stout/porter, some english ales, belgian ales, sours, fruit beer, and other high flavor character beers aren't going to benefit at all or nearly as much from the process. I say follow your taste buds. If you think low O2 brewing makes your beer better tasting then do it. It's not a panacea for making all styles of beer better. Knowing how and when to apply a technique to make your beer better is what makes you a brewer.


Edited by SchwanzBrewer, 19 December 2018 - 09:47 PM.

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#15 HVB

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 06:22 AM

It only makes sense for styles that don't benefit from oxidation related flavors. Beers that are all malt and low hops, low yeast character, or are "soft" and "delicate" will benefit. Obviously german pale lagers fall into this category since there's very rigid and specific flavors one would want and expect in the beer. IPA, stout/porter, some english ales, belgian ales, sours, fruit beer, and other high flavor character beers aren't going to benefit at all or nearly as much from the process. I say follow your taste buds. If you think low O2 brewing makes your beer better tasting then do it. It's not a panacea for making all styles of beer better. Knowing how and when to apply a technique to make your beer better is what makes you a brewer.

I disagree on the IPA aspect of this especially with NEIPA.  They are very easy to oxidize.  Now, I personally think that watching the O2 on the cold side is were  you will see the biggest benefit.  For me, I had always been rigid about the oxygen on the cold side and most of the changes I had tried were on the hot side.  I personally do not see the benefit, to me, to doing that anymore.


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#16 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 07:03 AM

Im making wide generalizations. Im not the definitive low o2 beer style guru.
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#17 ER Pemberton

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 07:35 AM

I had to make a lot of hot side mods.  I used to pour my strike and sparge water into my MT.  Now I transfer it with hi-temp tubing and underlet the mash.  I use the trifecta mix and a mash cap and I'm more careful when I recirculate and run off.  Those changes alone made a huge difference in the color of my beer.  Not that it's that important but it has clearly made a difference and if oxidation shows itself by darkening the wort/beer, I've clearly made changes that have an impact.  Last January I made four consecutive low-O2 batches that were spunded.  At the time I was getting a lot of trub into the fermenter which used to be a non-issue because I would let the beer fully ferment and settle and then transfer it.  But sending that sludgy mess to the keg with some amount of gravity left resulted in some very cloudy beers.  So I cheated by doing all the early low-O2 steps but then letting fermentation complete and settle, run it off via closed-transfer, gel it and force-carb it.  Those beers were good and I called it "lower-O2".  But then I started getting the full volume of clear wort into the fermenter and I wanted to see if I could now do a spund and get clear beer.  The low-O2 guys are very clear about no trub in the fermenter.  If you were fining it might not be an issue but they're also very clear about not using a fining agent.  So that's where I am right now.  I have made 5 low-O2 batches since December 1.  Here's something that is really nice about the process I'm using right now... you can have a beer fermenting and send that beer to a keg after 4-5 days.  Then you have a nice active slurry of yeast and you could brew the next day using that yeast and have activity on that batch almost immediately because it's like that yeast didn't even take a break.  I sent batch 4 to the keg on Tuesday and then brewed yesterday and had fermentation activity when I went back and checked 30 minutes after pitching.  If these batches don't convince me that this is the path, I would go back to my "lower-O2" process.  But I wouldn't want to criticize the low-O2 processes without having tried them first myself and seeing how the beers came out.  If you're not into it, that's fine.  But to doubt it or argue it without having tried it... that part I don't get.  



#18 LeftyMPfrmDE

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 08:31 AM

I disagree on the IPA aspect of this especially with NEIPA.  They are very easy to oxidize.  Now, I personally think that watching the O2 on the cold side is were  you will see the biggest benefit.  

without trying a LODO method,(while the process does intrigue me to try it) This makes the most since to me with experiencing it first hand. the beers in general I make are made with caution with O2 exposure on the cold side; closed transfers into purged kegs via taking a keg full of sani-clean, and pushed with CO2 until the santizer is gone (picked that idea up from the experimental brewing podcast) then racked from a closed bucket (a bucket with a gamma seal lid, and a custom made spigot). 

 

I will say for IPAs, the fresh hop flavors last a month longer then before doing this particular method. before, the hops fell off about two months in, now, three months before start to fall off- that is of course, the keg lasts that long. 


Edited by LeftyMPfrmDE, 20 December 2018 - 08:35 AM.

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#19 ER Pemberton

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 08:39 AM

without trying a LODO method, This makes the most since to me with experiencing it first hand. the beers in general I make are made with caution with O2 exposure on the cold side; closed transfers into purged kegs via taking a keg full of sani-clean, and pushed with CO2 until the santizer is gone (picked that idea up from the experimental brewing podcast) then racked from a closed bucket (a bucket with a gamma seal lid, and a custom made spigot). 

 

I will say for IPAs, the fresh hop flavors last a month longer then before doing this particular method. before, the hops fell off about two months in, now, three months before start to fall off. 

The low-O2 guys have a way of turning things on their head:  The concept of purging a keg, for example.  I used to just fill the keg with CO2 and then release it.  Then I filled the keg with a Starsan solution and pushed it out with CO2.  Both of those were considered insufficient.  I ended up using their method of connecting the fermenter to the keg and purging the keg with the 100% CO2 that comes from fermentation.  On one hand, I don't really care how it's done but using something that is naturally occurring anyway is kind of cool to me.  I also don't have to do anything special other than have a clean and sanitized keg available to me on brewday which is not an issue.  They have mentioned that everything you do may have to be looked at from a new angle and it's true... especially if your methods were crude to begin with as mine were.  



#20 LeftyMPfrmDE

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 08:46 AM

The low-O2 guys have a way of turning things on their head:  The concept of purging a keg, for example.  I used to just fill the keg with CO2 and then release it.  Then I filled the keg with a Starsan solution and pushed it out with CO2.  Both of those were considered insufficient.  I ended up using their method of connecting the fermenter to the keg and purging the keg with the 100% CO2 that comes from fermentation.  On one hand, I don't really care how it's done but using something that is naturally occurring anyway is kind of cool to me.  I also don't have to do anything special other than have a clean and sanitized keg available to me on brewday which is not an issue.  They have mentioned that everything you do may have to be looked at from a new angle and it's true... especially if your methods were crude to begin with as mine were.  

If nothing else, its free CO2!  :D


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