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#1 ER Pemberton

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 08:12 AM

BFBT = Beer Forum Brain Trust.  :D

 

I brewed yesterday which means my one single fermenting fridge (small) is occupied.  I am planning another brewday for tomorrow (Sunday) making a West Coast Lager with 2112.  I needed to find a way to ferment it cool (about 58° preferably) and I considered going back to the plastic tub with some water in it.  But I've been fermenting in what amounts to a plastic bottling bucket with a spigot and having the spigot submerged was looking dicey.  I tested it... placed the bucket into the tub of water and I just put a 10lb CO2 tank in there to keep it down.  After about an hour there was some water in the bucket.  These buckets never leak beer when they're fermenting in the fridge but I don't want to take the chance of water/starsan solution creeping into the bucket.  What other option do I have?  A bucket of water just sitting on my basement floor is at about 61° right now.  Maybe place the fermenter in the tub and just rotate frozen water bottles in the tub but don't put any water in it?  My garage is too cold, my basement is too warm and all my fridges are occupado.  Thoughts? 



#2 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 08:24 AM

You're gonna need a bigger boat.

Non spigot ferm buckets are cheap.

Full size fridges that you can split into independent temp sections are cheap on letgo.

Scheduling similar beers two days in a row is easy, too.
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#3 ER Pemberton

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 08:39 AM

I have non-spigot ferm buckets but to be low-O2 compliant you can't do open-transfers... so you directly closed-transfer the beer at/near the end of fermentation through the spigot.  So the non-spigot fermenter is not an option.  These plastic spigots are a bit of a pain and while they're filled with an Oxi or starsan solution they tend to drip no matter what I do.  If it's loose it drips, if it's too tight it drips.  But they never leak beer in the fermenting fridge.  Maybe a drop here or there but generally not.

 

Also, I don't really have a way to "heat" the fermenter if someone were to suggest using the garage and heating things to 58° so that won't work either.  In the old days I would make a lager and an ale within a day of each other and use the tub of water for the ales but the spigot thing has me :scratch:.



#4 djinkc

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 08:44 AM

I have non-spigot ferm buckets but to be low-O2 compliant you can't do open-transfers... so you directly closed-transfer the beer at/near the end of fermentation through the spigot.  So the non-spigot fermenter is not an option.  These plastic spigots are a bit of a pain and while they're filled with an Oxi or starsan solution they tend to drip no matter what I do.  If it's loose it drips, if it's too tight it drips.  But they never leak beer in the fermenting fridge.  Maybe a drop here or there but generally not.

 

Also, I don't really have a way to "heat" the fermenter if someone were to suggest using the garage and heating things to 58° so that won't work either.  In the old days I would make a lager and an ale within a day of each other and use the tub of water for the ales but the spigot thing has me :scratch:.

 

Brew one that isn't low-02 and see if it's worth the trouble


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#5 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 08:51 AM

Also, hole saws are cheap. Drill a hole in the lid, get a stopper with 2 holes. 1 has a stainless siphon that goes through one hole, nozzle from the co2 through the other. Push beer out at 5 psi or less.
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#6 ER Pemberton

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 09:08 AM

Brew one that isn't low-02 and see if it's worth the trouble

I've done enough of both to already know.

 

 

Also, hole saws are cheap. Drill a hole in the lid, get a stopper with 2 holes. 1 has a stainless siphon that goes through one hole, nozzle from the co2 through the other. Push beer out at 5 psi or less.

You can't push the beer with CO2.  I'll have to noodle with it a bit.  I think I could just put a smidge of water in the tub so that it doesn't reach the spigot and then throw some frozen water bottles in there and keep my fingers crossed.  This is all in an attempt to catch back up after a November family gathering obliterated my supply.  :D



#7 djinkc

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 09:40 AM

I've done enough of both to already know.

 

 

You can't push the beer with CO2.  I'll have to noodle with it a bit.  I think I could just put a smidge of water in the tub so that it doesn't reach the spigot and then throw some frozen water bottles in there and keep my fingers crossed.  This is all in an attempt to catch back up after a November family gathering obliterated my supply.  :D

 

?? Around here you can


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#8 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 10:38 AM

I've done enough of both to already know.

 

 

You can't push the beer with CO2.  I'll have to noodle with it a bit.  I think I could just put a smidge of water in the tub so that it doesn't reach the spigot and then throw some frozen water bottles in there and keep my fingers crossed.  This is all in an attempt to catch back up after a November family gathering obliterated my supply.  :D

 

CO2 is not oxygenating the beer!!!!!!!!! Does it oxygenate the beer when carbonate it? Come on, man.


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#9 ER Pemberton

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 10:41 AM

CO2 is not oxygenating the beer!!!!!!!!! Does it oxygenate the beer when carbonate it? Come on, man.

CO2 is oxidizing the beer.  Force-carbing is a no-no which is why you see commercial breweries starting to spund now.  I know, it sounds wrong and foil-hat like.  I've been looking into this for over a year now and the ideas are soaking into my brain very slowly and my progress has been deliberately cautious.  I didn't expect this conversation to touch on the low-O2 thing but I realize now why it has.  



#10 Bklmt2000

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 10:51 AM

BFBT = Beer Forum Brain Trust.  :D

 

I brewed yesterday which means my one single fermenting fridge (small) is occupied.  I am planning another brewday for tomorrow (Sunday) making a West Coast Lager with 2112.  I needed to find a way to ferment it cool (about 58° preferably) and I considered going back to the plastic tub with some water in it.  But I've been fermenting in what amounts to a plastic bottling bucket with a spigot and having the spigot submerged was looking dicey.  I tested it... placed the bucket into the tub of water and I just put a 10lb CO2 tank in there to keep it down.  After about an hour there was some water in the bucket.  These buckets never leak beer when they're fermenting in the fridge but I don't want to take the chance of water/starsan solution creeping into the bucket.  What other option do I have?  A bucket of water just sitting on my basement floor is at about 61° right now.  Maybe place the fermenter in the tub and just rotate frozen water bottles in the tub but don't put any water in it?  My garage is too cold, my basement is too warm and all my fridges are occupado.  Thoughts? 

 

You could do this, and drape some heavy/beach towels over the top of the bucket lid, and over the outside of the tub, to help trap the cold in a bit.  I've done this in the past and had good success with it.

 

Would be (in my mind, at least) similar to fermenting in a dedicated fridge, where the cool/cold air maintains the ferm temp, instead of the cold water in a full-ahead water bath setup.

 

Ken, if you go this route (swamp cooler minus the water bath, just frozen water bottles) I'd suggest procuring a few extra bottles and get them frozen ASAP, since you'll probably need more at the beginning of the primary to keep the temps in check.


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#11 ER Pemberton

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 11:05 AM

Ken, if you go this route (swamp cooler minus the water bath, just frozen water bottles) I'd suggest procuring a few extra bottles and get them frozen ASAP, since you'll probably need more at the beginning of the primary to keep the temps in check.

Yes, I agree and I did that.  I have one large bottle (apple juice or something) that is already frozen.  Then I found two 1-liter bottles of tonic water that my wife bought by mistake and they've been sitting in the bar for years.  I emptied them and the refilled them with water and they're in the fridge now.  I just need to lower the temp by about 3° or so.  I think this is the way to do it.  Thanks & cheers.



#12 djinkc

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 11:13 AM

CO2 is oxidizing the beer.  Force-carbing is a no-no which is why you see commercial breweries starting to spund now.  I know, it sounds wrong and foil-hat like.  I've been looking into this for over a year now and the ideas are soaking into my brain very slowly and my progress has been deliberately cautious.  I didn't expect this conversation to touch on the low-O2 thing but I realize now why it has.  

You're going to have to explain that one to me

 

nm - found this

 

http://www.lowoxygen...dioxide-purity/

 

my solution is to drink faster

 

So you how do you transfer from a bucket to keg without O2 contamination?


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#13 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 11:19 AM

CO2 is oxidizing the beer. Force-carbing is a no-no which is why you see commercial breweries starting to spund now. I know, it sounds wrong and foil-hat like. I've been looking into this for over a year now and the ideas are soaking into my brain very slowly and my progress has been deliberately cautious. I didn't expect this conversation to touch on the low-O2 thing but I realize now why it has.


And how the @#$## do you think it gets served?

Ken, these people are backyard scientists that have their heads squarely imbedded in thier their own BS. When you go looking for a problem knowing the answer so vehemently you introduce a mountain of confirmation bias.

Please read these things by these guys with a bit of skepticism.

Yes O2 is bad for beer post fermentation. Yes if you want the best beer you should be gentle, but dont let bad science dictate your actions. A gentle application of CO2 at low pressure pushing the beer through a siphon in a closed transfer is not oxidizing the beer any more than whatever process you are doing.
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#14 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 11:38 AM

Just read blulosophy on spunding, i dont think moving the beer like i suggest precludes you from spunding and whatever percieved benefit that entails.
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#15 ER Pemberton

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 11:38 AM

You're going to have to explain that one to me

 

nm - found this

 

http://www.lowoxygen...dioxide-purity/

 

my solution is to drink faster

 

So you how do you transfer from a bucket to keg without O2 contamination?

I've laid that out HERE.

 

 

And how the @#$## do you think it gets served?

Ken, these people are backyard scientists that have their heads squarely imbedded in thier their own BS. When you go looking for a problem knowing the answer so vehemently you introduce a mountain of confirmation bias.

Please read these things by these guys with a bit of skepticism.

Yes O2 is bad for beer post fermentation. Yes if you want the best beer you should be gentle, but dont let bad science dictate your actions. A gentle application of CO2 at low pressure pushing the beer through a siphon in a closed transfer is not oxidizing the beer any more than whatever process you are doing.

Believe me, my brain has been slow to process all of this and I'm not a scientist.  If this information doesn't interest you I get it.  But I wanted to try the process myself before I made any decision on it.  A fully low-O2 beer that has been spunded is very different than a beer made with my old process.  There is also nothing hard about it and I bought almost no new equipment.  Most everything was put together with things I already had in my brewery.  If you HAVE tried to make a low-O2 beer and decided that it's not for you, that's good too.  This is all in the spirit of better beer.  If it's better, the result is BETTER BEER.  If it's not better, I can go back to my old processes.



#16 Bklmt2000

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 11:50 AM

Ken, I'm curious:

 

Since you're using your tub as a dry "swamp" cooler, is the plan to turn the spigot upwards, fill w/ Starsan, vodka, etc. (to keep nasties out), and maybe cover in foil, kind of like a 2nd airlock?

 

I strongly agree with not using the tub filled w/ water as a straight-ahead swamp cooler, given what you're using as a primary fermenter, since I can easily see water intruding thru the spigot threads and ruining the batch.

 

Do you have any more tubs like the one you'll be using tomorrow, or just the one?


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#17 ER Pemberton

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 11:57 AM

Ken, I'm curious:

 

Since you're using your tub as a dry "swamp" cooler, is the plan to turn the spigot upwards, fill w/ Starsan, vodka, etc. (to keep nasties out), and maybe cover in foil, kind of like a 2nd airlock?

 

I strongly agree with not using the tub filled w/ water as a straight-ahead swamp cooler, given what you're using as a primary fermenter, since I can easily see water intruding thru the spigot threads and ruining the batch.

 

Do you have any more tubs like the one you'll be using tomorrow, or just the one?

Point the spigot up and also place a plastic cap on the 'faucet' just so nothing ends up inside the spigot itself.  I took some white plastic caps from an orange carboy cap and those fit on the spigot.  I have this one 10-gallon tub and I used to use it for ales especially in the summer.  At some point I started making ales and lagers in a temp-controlled fridge but with my current depleted supply I find myself noodling with the tub again... it's the only one I have.  



#18 ER Pemberton

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 12:01 PM



Just read blulosophy on spunding, i dont think moving the beer like i suggest precludes you from spunding and whatever percieved benefit that entails.

The low-O2 guys and the brulosophy guys are not really friendly with each other, of course.  My goal is not to try to convince anyone of any low-O2 thinking.  It's there for whoever wants to try it out for themselves and it's easily ignored too.  For anyone who has tried it and tasted the beer, they can make the decision at that point on whether it's better or not.  I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on it.  I have been open-minded about it since the start because the result could be better beer and I'm always interested in better beer and I'm rarely in the position where I think my beer cannot improve.  



#19 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 12:07 PM

The low-O2 guys and the brulosophy guys are not really friendly with each other, of course. My goal is not to try to convince anyone of any low-O2 thinking. It's there for whoever wants to try it out for themselves and it's easily ignored too. For anyone who has tried it and tasted the beer, they can make the decision at that point on whether it's better or not. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on it. I have been open-minded about it since the start because the result could be better beer and I'm always interested in better beer and I'm rarely in the position where I think my beer cannot improve.


Im not questioning the effects of spunding, im just saying in your situation a little gentle co2 push isnt going to ruin your low O2 processes and wont preclude you from finishing the beer via natural carbonation. Id eat my shoe if you could repeat the processes and prove me wrong.
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#20 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 12:19 PM

I also think you need to make a video of your transfer process.

How do you avoid the pressure drop from the fermenter, do you let air in to allow the beer to flow? Creating a vacuum on you plastic fermenter isnt good. Its not as good in compression as it is in tension. Could be creating micro cracks for contaminants to form.
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