43 replies to this topic

[jayb151]

So, I've been using the no chill method since about last spring to help cut down on my brew time. I've noticed no ill effects with my beer, so I never thought about it. 

 

But I've been streaming my brew sessions on Twitch as well, and I had a viewer ask about if I should be concerned with oxidation since I'm letting the wort sit around for sometimes up to 36 hours without active fermentation...

 

So, Should I be concerned? My gut says no because even if there is O2 in the wort, it will be driven off when I do add yeast. But I'm not 100% sure, so I thought I'd turn to the experts. Any thoughts or opinions? Anyone know what the science says about this issue?

 

Side Note: My first time using Kveik. I'm pretty excited! 

[djinkc]

I don't see a reason for concern

[Bklmt2000]

I wouldn't worry. 

 

If you're happy with how your beers turn out this way, I woudn't change what's working.

[jayb151]

Sweet. Thanks guys. 

 

that's what I thought, but i just wanted to see what others thought about it. 

[Big Nake]

So the wort is sealed up in a fermenter for that 36 hours?  I guess I would say that you're okay but one of my worst batches ever occurred when I didn't have good fermentation going relatively quickly... but that could say more about my sanitation than what happens when wort sits inactive.  If there is O2 in the solution with no active fermentation my guess is that the O2 is doing you harm.  The low-O2 guys emphasize a quick start so that yeast can use up any O2 in solution as quickly as possible.  That said, I know I'm not 100% in line with some of those low-O2 ideas.  I suppose it comes down to whether you see an issue in your beer.  One reason I started looking at the low-O2 ideas was that I had some older bottled beer that I took over to my parents' house and it was really oxidized.  

[jayb151]

I hear you Ken. 

 

Yes, I pour my boiling hot wort into a corny and seal it up with a couple lbs of pressure, so not only is there little dissolved gasses because it's so hot, but there's also a blanket of Co2 over it. I'm feeling like I'm fine, especially since the wort is what I use to sanitize the corny too. 

 

In my mind, it was the easiest solution to solve a bunch of issues in my brewing, but now my issue is that I can't make very hoppy beers since I'm in a corny and I don't cool quickly. I have considered running the be beer into a secondary for dry hopping, but I'm still not sure I want to do that!

[Bklmt2000]

I hear you Ken. 

 

Yes, I pour my boiling hot wort into a corny and seal it up with a couple lbs of pressure, so not only is there little dissolved gasses because it's so hot, but there's also a blanket of Co2 over it. I'm feeling like I'm fine, especially since the wort is what I use to sanitize the corny too. 

 

In my mind, it was the easiest solution to solve a bunch of issues in my brewing, but now my issue is that I can't make very hoppy beers since I'm in a corny and I don't cool quickly. I have considered running the be beer into a secondary for dry hopping, but I'm still not sure I want to do that!

 

Dry-hopping, post-primary ferment.

[Big Nake]

My mind has been altered by looking into low-O2 ideas but I don't pretend to understand all of it or subscribe to all of it... partially because I have found some obstacles in my processes and equipment.  But the level of investigation is very high among the believers.  In some cases it's very easy to identify and understand (and then hopefully find a way around it) and in other cases the ideas are pretty jaw-dropping.  Their thinking is that O2 will invade at any chance even when you think there is no chance.  The same thing that ruins your potato chips or tortilla chips or bread or whatever wants to ruin your beer too.  One example is that they determined that O2 will penetrate a bottle sealed with a bottle cap.  To test it, they put some just-bottled beer into a keg and then pressurized the keg and put that keg into a fridge along with some loose bottles from the same batch.  I forget the timeframe (2-3 months?) but they opened the bottles from the keg and they were good.  The loose bottles tasted oxidized and even showed a darker color than the other bottles.  This is a place where my mind would never go so I find it interesting.  The low-O2 brewers typically back everything they state with scientific points but the bottom line is "how much do I like my beer?" or maybe "can my beer be better?".  If you find yourself thinking that way, look into it.  If not, it's not for you.  

[djinkc]

My mind has been altered by looking into low-O2 ideas but I don't pretend to understand all of it or subscribe to all of it... partially because I have found some obstacles in my processes and equipment.  But the level of investigation is very high among the believers.  In some cases it's very easy to identify and understand (and then hopefully find a way around it) and in other cases the ideas are pretty jaw-dropping.  Their thinking is that O2 will invade at any chance even when you think there is no chance.  The same thing that ruins your potato chips or tortilla chips or bread or whatever wants to ruin your beer too.  One example is that they determined that O2 will penetrate a bottle sealed with a bottle cap.  To test it, they put some just-bottled beer into a keg and then pressurized the keg and put that keg into a fridge along with some loose bottles from the same batch.  I forget the timeframe (2-3 months?) but they opened the bottles from the keg and they were good.  The loose bottles tasted oxidized and even showed a darker color than the other bottles.  This is a place where my mind would never go so I find it interesting.  The low-O2 brewers typically back everything they state with scientific points but the bottom line is "how much do I like my beer?" or maybe "can my beer be better?".  If you find yourself thinking that way, look into it.  If not, it's not for you.  

 

I think most have experienced an old oxidized bottle of beer.  I'm not surprised.  And now have another reason not to bottle on top of it.

[Big Nake]

JB, if you would really like to know about the impact of O2 in the circumstances you've described here, ask the question HERE. I probably don't know enough about low-O2 and what you're doing specifically but they will. You will get a definitive answer.  I already have an account there and will ask the question for you if you'd rather not register but would like to know their answer.

[jayb151]

Wow, Ken, there's a whole lot on info on that page! I just registered, but I'll have to wait for approval. 

 

It's crazy to think that O2 can penetrate into a bottle, but I guess that's why people wax seal too. My thoughts for that though is that is oxidation after fermentation. Though after reading that page a bit, I guess oxidation pre-boil also matters. I have a feeling that the Low O2-ers are going to say my method is a no go.

[Big Nake]

Wow, Ken, there's a whole lot on info on that page! I just registered, but I'll have to wait for approval. 

 

It's crazy to think that O2 can penetrate into a bottle, but I guess that's why people wax seal too. My thoughts for that though is that is oxidation after fermentation. Though after reading that page a bit, I guess oxidation pre-boil also matters. I have a feeling that the Low O2-ers are going to say my method is a no go.

My guess is that they will give it a no-go but knowing the specific reason would be helpful.  A lot of the caveats they mentioned that could happen in a normal brew session were brought up with various suggestions on how to get around those issues.  Some of the brewers there have some very specialized equipment but others are just trying to find ways to do things in other ways and are working with equipment that many brewers already have so I was able to make some relatively simple changes to my process without spending any real money.  

[armagh]

One possibility is to take a page from the mead maker's book: 1/4 tsp ascorbic acid if racking to a secondary fermentation.

ETA: presuming 5 gallon batch.

Edited by armagh, 30 October 2018 - 01:29 PM.

[Big Nake]

One possibility is to take a page from the mead maker's book: 1/4 tsp ascorbic acid if racking to a secondary fermentation.

ETA: presuming 5 gallon batch.

Right.  That along with sodium metabisulfite and also brewtan b are used as a "trifecta mix" (in beer) which is supposed to be used as a safety net for areas of your process where O2 can creep in.  My problem areas are mostly during recirculation of the wort and also running off into the kettle.  The SMB and AA are supposed to scavenge O2 quite effectively.  

[denny]

Just returned from Australia and probably 90% or more of the homebrewers there use this method.  Based on the beers I tasted, it works so well that you really can't tell the difference.  as soon as I recover from hip surgery and can brew again, I intend to really delve into it.

[djinkc]

Just returned from Australia and probably 90% or more of the homebrewers there use this method.  Based on the beers I tasted, it works so well that you really can't tell the difference.  as soon as I recover from hip surgery and can brew again, I intend to really delve into it.

hope it's a quick recovery

[jayb151]

Just returned from Australia and probably 90% or more of the homebrewers there use this method.  Based on the beers I tasted, it works so well that you really can't tell the difference.  as soon as I recover from hip surgery and can brew again, I intend to really delve into it.

 

I actually heard about this method from brewers in Australia, so it's good to hear that there's little effect. Thanks for checking in Denny and have a speedy recovery!

[neddles]

Good luck with the hip Denny.

[denny]

hope it's a quick recovery

 

me, too...thanks!  Sounds like 2 weeks of hell, another 2 or 3 that aren't too bad, then a month of getting back to normal

Good luck with the hip Denny.

\

Thanks, all.  In the final stages of prep.  Operation 11/19.

[Big Nake]

Here's to a speedy recovery.