49 replies to this topic

[LeftyMPfrmDE]

Buddy of mine shared a link of the brew shop's FB page. A co-owner thought it was a good idea to bottle a kolsh in wine bottles, not sparkling wine bottles, but regular wine bottles. "Looks like it's going to be bottle bombs. I thought it just push the cork out."

I'm out, man. Outta the owners sheer ignorance of the craft.

Edited by LeftyMPfrmDE, 18 August 2018 - 10:48 AM.

[MyaCullen]

Buddy of mine shared a link of the brew shop's FB page. A co-owner thought it was a good idea to bottle a kolsh in wine bottles, not sparkling wine bottles, but regular wine bottles. "Looks like it's going to be bottle bombs. I thought it just push the cork out."

I'm out, man. Outta the owners sheer ignorance of the craft.

the stupid, it hurts

 

I once tried to do a champagne level carb in ordinary beer bottles, just 6 bottles, one did blow up in my fridge, middle of the night, scared the crap outta me.

[positiveContact]

the stupid, it hurts

I once tried to do a champagne level carb in ordinary beer bottles, just 6 bottles, one did blow up in my fridge, middle of the night, scared the crap outta me.

I'm pretty sure I recently tried to tell someone to avoid letting an airlock clog up in a glass carboy. They seemed to think it would push the stopper out. I was not so sure.

[MyaCullen]

I'm pretty sure I recently tried to tell someone to avoid letting an airlock clog up in a glass carboy. They seemed to think it would push the stopper out. I was not so sure.

it usually will, but....

[BarefootBrews]

Have not posted on the forum in quite a while (probably on the order of years), but I find this topic interesting.  Perhaps I was lucky back in the early 1990's to have a local shop that was knowledgeable and very well managed.  Back in the day as Ken refers to is when a local homebrew shop was about the only option we had for our supplies.  It does baffle me that so many local shops today provide lousy service, products, advice, etc.  Fast forward to today, and options abound.

 

It's very difficult for me to argue in support of local shops on price when I hear of $39/sack + $19 shipping on Swaen Pilsner malt from Label Peelers (their website as of today lists as $57.83/sack but slashed down to $43.37/sack).  However, I will play a little bit of devil's advocate here, if I may.  Unless you are say a 50bbl brewhouse with a grain silo, as a small brewery you are buying grain per sack at wholesale price.  $30 on that sack of Swaen Pilsner is a very reasonable wholesale expectation.  Let's order a whole pallet, so about 36 sacks.  Drop ship LTL freight to your front door, up charges on fuel cost (all shipping companies charge a variable fee depending on price of fuel), up charge for a lift gate if you don't have a loading dock (most breweries do not, and doubtful that you have a loading dock at home too).  You're looking at $200 for a pallet delivery today.  Divided by 36 bags on the pallet comes up to $5.55 per sack of grain to deliver.  If the brewery doesn't need a full pallet, the price per bag goes up.  Realistic expectation on average, a brewery is looking at $8 per bag shipping.  So, $30 (and that's a very reasonable wholesale price) plus $8 shipping comes up to $38 for a sack of Swaen Pilsner.

 

Local store that I've shopped at since the early 1990's has Avangard Pilsner at $53/sack.  I'm familiar with both Swaen and Avangard; both are 55lb sacks; Swaen being a tad bit more expensive option; both equal quality.  I don't know what he paid for the sack....but in my above reasonable estimate $38-$40.  He's making $15 on my purchase.  Is that outrageous price gouging?  Not in my mind.

 

Some points that I will agree with are prices of domestic malts compared to european malts.  50lb sack of domestic Briess Brewer's malt at the same local shop is also $53/sack.  I'm getting 5 lb less malt of lower quality for the same price?  Economics, compliance with global regulations, etc all come into play.  E.g. buy a t-shirt made in USA and pay 5x the price of one made in Honduras.  Why shouldn't we expect the same on our own homegrown agricultural products?

 

Maybe I went on a long rant and diverted off topic a bit.  My point was supposed to be if you have a good local store to support them .  I know there are a ton of lousy shops out there, but some pretty darn good ones too.  What may appear as price gouging to us at times is a reasonable cost, and is just a little guy trying to put his kids thru school; same as we are too by saving a few bucks buying from a global Amazons of the world.

[positiveContact]

usually the high prices are laziness/ignorance or hubris as far as I can tell.  the laziness is laziness to figure how to give your customer the best price while still making money.  the hubris is that some of these owners think they know best and wouldn't consider operating in a different way to stay competitive b/c their shop is so awesome, they are so smart and knowledgeable, etc.

[Big Nake]

The one example I brought up was the $37 for a sack of Swaen Pils but one of my local places had Rahr Pale Ale malt for $65 a sack.  That's quite a difference and Rahr is coming from MN and Swaen is coming from Holland.  Yes, the Swaen would requite shipping and the Rahr would not but it's still the price of the malt itself that's questionable.  The local place is one of the few around here where you can actually buy a full sack of grain so maybe that's a factor.  Other stores here don't want to part with a full sack.  

[Bklmt2000]

My days of patronizing my local, just because they're local, are over.

 

The convenience of being able to have my brewing ingredients delivered right to my (garage) door is important to me on several fronts:

 

- We own 2 cars, and since I work from home, I don't have wheels during the day to go to the LHBS (my son drives my car to work, my wife drives hers).

 

- Places like LP are saving me a buttload of time, to the point above, by delivering my brewing ingredients to my door, and at/below my LHBS price point. 

 

Otherwise, I'd have to spend a good chunk of valuable weekend time (on a Saturday) to make the trek to my LHBS, and that place is a motherfecking zoo on a Saturday.  No thanks, not doing that again.

 

And, as I mentioned back in the OP, the guy who usually runs the homebrew part of my LHBS (the asst. mgr) is a complete prick.  If I never have to deal with that putz again, it'll be too soon.

Edited by Bklmt2000, 26 August 2018 - 08:27 AM.

[BarefootBrews]

Going back to the original post of Swaen Pilsner from Label Peelers, I saw $58 per bag which included shipping.  Doubtful that I can get the same shipping price since I live down in SC.  :-(

 

I also saw on the thread it was $37 per bag at Label Peelers.

 

https://labelpeelers...sner-malt-55lb/

 

It's normally priced at $57, but currently slashed down to $43.  Was the $37 a deal where I have to call them up or something?  Or a one time overstock price?  At that price compared to the normal price, I would be worried that it was on old sack they were trying to get rid of or something.

 

My point is that I'm not adverse to Swan Pilsner at my LHBS for $60 per sack when he gives me a 10% club membership discount.  That's $54.

 

Best price I've found on LP website lately has been $43.  Shipping by FedEx from Ohio to SC based on FedEx website calculator is $45 for a 55 lb package delivered to a residence.  LP probably has some negotiated prices with FedEx or UPS or whomever, but it's still going to be $20+ for shipping I would think.  LP price plus shipping is in the $63 range for me.

 

LP $63.  LHBS $54.

 

That savings of $9 for me including my gas/time/etc for going across town is a wash.  Maybe I'm just an old fart that supports local businesses.  Yeah, my comparison doesn't include the local taxes I pay at my LHBS, which in reality we are obligated to claim on our tax returns for "online" purchases.  We can't kid ourselves into thinking the state/county/city won't make up for the windfall of any undeclared purchases by raising our taxes somewhere else that we cannot hide from paying.

 

I will keep checking on Labels Peelers for the $37 bag of Swaen Pilsner.  Hopefully it comes around again soon.

Edited by BarefootBrews, 29 August 2018 - 03:10 AM.

[Big Nake]

LP often has sales that drive the prices down on whatever products they're putting on sale that day or that week.  Sometimes they have a 50% OFF EVERYTHING sale.  Pretty sure the last two times I got Swaen Pils it was $37 per sack plus $18 shipping... $55... and no local place here will touch that, at least of the three places I use.

 

Let me ask you guys something else:  When you go into a local supplier and need X number of pounds of various malts, how does it work?  At one of my places, you find the grain in the shop, measure it, dump it into buckets and someone at the shop bags it for you in the back.  At another place, you tell them what you want and someone in the back will find it, weigh it and bag it.  At yet another place, they actually have 1, 5 and 10 pound bags of things already on the shelf for you to just grab and take to the counter which I find very convenient.  At the other places, if it's a Saturday and there are a lot of people in there you have to ask them for 20 pounds of this, 15 pounds of that and 3 pounds of something else, you may be there for a looooooooooong time.  I have also had the one place either mislabel (sharpie) or actually forget to label the bag that they made for you.  I regularly go to the place where I weigh things out and they bag it and I go during the week when it's less crowded and I carefully watch them bag it and label it so there is no mistake.  

[Bklmt2000]

At my local, I'd weigh out what I wanted, write down the corresponding 3-digit number for that grain and the weight I wanted, then dictate it to the deskperson when checking out.

 

Not a good system at all, as I'd usually buy 10-15 #s of specialty malts at a time, and even on a slow day, the line behind me would back up a bit.

 

Much easier for me to order what I want from LP by the #, then portion out what I need for a given batch and save the rest.

 

I vac-seal my specialty grains, and all grains (base and specialty) get stored in gamma-seal-lidded Vittles Vaults, so grains getting stale w/ long-term storage isn't an issue.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, ordering is just easier especially if you're talking about a crowd of people around a scale or something.  What I will do (even if I'm buying locally) is just call or email the store and ask them to get my grains ready whenever they have some downtime and I'll be in later in the day to pick it up.  I know that the person/people in the store are just sitting around at 10:30am on a Tuesday (or whatever) so might as well ask THEM to weigh out and package my grains so I'm not doing it myself.  I suppose we're lucky that we have so many good options now... even Amazon can make things easier.

 

The other issue is that my one store uses these plastic bags that come in a roll and need to be heat-sealed to close.  She rolls some out off the roll and heat seals one end.  Then she bags the grain through a funnel and heat seals the other end.  Except... often the seal doesn't hold and grain spills out... sometimes it spills in the store and sometimes is spills in my car or my garage or my basement.  I've told them about it many times and no one ever says a word about it.  WTF, man... get on the winning team! 

[BarefootBrews]

Honestly, don't get me wrong, the convenience of shopping online from home is great!  I'm sitting in front of my screen all day either at the office or working at home.  Human interaction isn't a bad thing.  Maybe your local store only has a checkout clerk that knows nothing about brewing, cares nothing about brewing, and knows nothing about the difference between Caramel 60L and CaraMunich III.  "Dude, both have a 60 on the bag, so my boss says they are the same."  Shame on the store owner for hiring one as that.  In reality, it's a small segment of people that can (or should I say will) work at a homebrew shop that have a good knowledge of every product on the shelf.  At least mine does have experienced homebrewer(s) working the store.  I'll call in orders if I'm in a rush to get in and out; especially because grains need to be milled and I might be on a time schedule.  For the most part, my local store is not terribly busy during the week and I'm not in a rush.  I will sit down and pick his brain for bit and talk shop.  Forums are great for a source of knowledge, but the time it takes to put into words clearly what I'm trying to get help on....same is accomplished in 1/10th the time face to face conversation.  Just from the knowledge alone that I've taken away from my local store, I feel bad about not showing them the same kind of support back with a walk-up purchase.  I knew 0 about homebrewing 25+ years ago when I walked into a local store.  Sure, thru the years some learning came from forums.  Mostly came from talking to the guys working at the store.  25 years later, and I'm still shopping there....at least 75% of the time.  ;-)

[HVB]

.  Forums are great for a source of knowledge, but the time it takes to put into words clearly what I'm trying to get help on....same is accomplished in 1/10th the time face to face conversation.  Just from the knowledge alone that I've taken away from my local store, I feel bad about not showing them the same kind of support back with a walk-up purchase.  I knew 0 about homebrewing 25+ years ago when I walked into a local store.  Sure, thru the years some learning came from forums.  Mostly came from talking to the guys working at the store.  25 years later, and I'm still shopping there....at least 75% of the time.  ;-)

I guess you are lucky because the advice I hear people get at a lot of HBS is cringe-worthy.  I am not the LHBS type customer.  I have more on hand at home than the closest store to me.  I walked in once looking for S-05 and he had none, had no pislner malt and no real hop selection.  I do not have time to waste having him order something so I can go back and get it in a week.  I can just do that on my own.

[Big Nake]

I guess you are lucky because the advice I hear people get at a lot of HBS is cringe-worthy.  I am not the LHBS type customer.  I have more on hand at home than the closest store to me.  I walked in once looking for S-05 and he had none, had no pislner malt and no real hop selection.  I do not have time to waste having him order something so I can go back and get it in a week.  I can just do that on my own.

I have seen this but not much anymore.  Yes, I see LHBS employees that don't know that much but come on... I've been brewing for almost 20 years and have spent countless hours brewing and talking & posting about brewing so I assume I have more experience with it.  This place I have done most of my local shopping at is pretty good inventory-wise and also information-wise.  The woman who owns it is a BJCP judge but she's mildly behind on things.  I told her about BTB and she had no idea what I was talking about.  A few months later she was stocking it.  When I buy pilsner malt she always tells me, Make sure you boil for 90 minutes with the pilsner malt or else you'll get DMS! and I just nod and smile.  I had a conversation with her about the whole low-O2 thing and she was all That's ridiculous! but now she is coming around to it and stocking some low-O2 items.  

[HVB]

Are they stocking it because they believe in it or because it is in the new LD Carlson catalog?

[Big Nake]

Are they stocking it because they believe in it or because it is in the new LD Carlson catalog?

What, the BTB?

 

Not sure.  I asked her about it once and she had no clue what it was and she did not stock it.  Then I saw it and said, "Aha! You have Brewtan now!" and she said, "YEAH!" like "of course we do!!" so I have no real clue why she's stocking it.  My guess is that she was asked about it numerous times by customers.

[Bklmt2000]

My (now-former) LHBS is really the only decent place in Cincy to buy brewing ingredients, which people seemed to have picked up on.

 

The place is always busy, even during what should be off hours.  Mid-morning on a Wednesday, and I'm the 3rd person in line, having gotten there at opening time.

 

Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, except for this: The overall space/staffing for the homebrew shop side of things is only adequate for roughly 1/3rd of the actual foot traffic the place gets anymore. 

 

I've gone there on a Saturday morning, right at opening, and the grain area was already 4 people deep, waiting to weigh out grain, without enough scales or room to maneuver around. 

 

After waiting for a couple of minutes, I turned around and walked out, vowing never to go back on a weekend day.  That was 5 years ago.

 

I simply see no reason to fight through all of that nonsense, simply for the privilege of overpaying for ingredients/equipment I can get cheaper online, and dealing with rude store staff at the same time.

 

No thanks.

[positiveContact]

My local places are ok. The closest one is really a small brewery selling Homebrew stuff on the side. Selection is okay but often yeast is out of date which is frustrating. Owner is a nice guy and fairly knowledgeable but he's often busy making beer. The other place takes me 25 mins to get to. Stock is much better. Prices are higher than online. The owner can be a bit of a know-it-all but is otherwise not a bad guy. If he was closer I'd use him more often.

[Big Nake]

My (now-former) LHBS is really the only decent place in Cincy to buy brewing ingredients, which people seemed to have picked up on.

 

The place is always busy, even during what should be off hours.  Mid-morning on a Wednesday, and I'm the 3rd person in line, having gotten there at opening time.

 

Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, except for this: The overall space/staffing for the homebrew shop side of things is only adequate for roughly 1/3rd of the actual foot traffic the place gets anymore. 

 

I've gone there on a Saturday morning, right at opening, and the grain area was already 4 people deep, waiting to weigh out grain, without enough scales or room to maneuver around. 

 

After waiting for a couple of minutes, I turned around and walked out, vowing never to go back on a weekend day.  That was 5 years ago.

 

I simply see no reason to fight through all of that nonsense, simply for the privilege of overpaying for ingredients/equipment I can get cheaper online, and dealing with rude store staff at the same time.

 

No thanks.

That is sort of the issue at one of my places.  You walk in and there are people standing around everywhere.  There might be a person helping someone with a question about wine while another person is at the register and another person is in the back weighing out hops or grain and packaging.  But there is no system.  You don't know that you need to go into [what is essentially] the backroom and tell the guy back there that you need 20 pounds of this, 15 pounds of that, etc.  So you walk in and get your head straight and maybe walk to the cashier to ask how things work and meanwhile 5 or 6 people walk in behind you and get waited on first which might actually happen even if you DID know what was up because the guy in the back doesn't know who came in first.  They need a numbering system or something.