98 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I posted this on lowoxygenbrewing.com too but wanted to throw it out here as well:

I need a by-the-numbers process for the spunding. For lagers I currently ferment about 5 days at 50° and then let it free-rise in the basement. For ales I ferment in a swamp cooler for about 5-6 days and then take it out. For spunding I need to get the beer to a keg with some amount of fermentation left (about 5 points I have heard... and a little more is okay). At what temp do we spund? Room temp? Cooler? Does it matter if it's an ale or lager? How long does the spunding process usually take? A few days? A week? The spunding valve is supposed to be set to about 0.8 bar or about 12 psi... but when you send the beer to the keg and seal it, there will be little-to-no pressure in there and the valve wouldn't register 12psi... so what do you do? Wait a day or so until pressure builds up and THEN attach the valve and adjust it? Also, let's say I connect the valve and it registers a higher pressure than 12psi. I would loosen the dial until I get to 12psi and then tighten it back up again, correct? This is the proper way to use it? If pressure builds up that would send the gauge higher, the valve is supposed to naturally vent that off, right? I'm learning to brew all over again. Cheers peeps.

[pkrone]

Spunding temp should be the same as your fermentation temp.   I usually let my kegs sit for about 2 weeks then put them in the fridge.   

 

As far as the valve goes...  I'd tighten it all the way and watch the pressure build and loosen it when appropriate to keep the pressure from going too high.  Then get ready for some awesome foam.   

[Big Nake]

Thanks pk... so do you hit your kegs with any CO2 at the start to make sure your keg lid is properly sealed? Also, to be clear: Put the valve on and watch as the pressure builds and when it's over that 12psi mark, loosen it and leave the "dial" right there until the end of the fermentation, correct?

[positiveContact]

I have a hard time bringing myself to clean 2x as many kegs (1 keg for carbonating, 1 keg for serving).  I think the only way I'd do spunding would be if my primary vessel could be used.

[HVB]

I have a hard time bringing myself to clean 2x as many kegs (1 keg for carbonating, 1 keg for serving).  I think the only way I'd do spunding would be if my primary vessel could be used.

That is what I do but I do not get to the full carbonation level.  I can only get to 5-6 PSI in primary and then I do the rest once I move to a keg.

[positiveContact]

That is what I do but I do not get to the full carbonation level.  I can only get to 5-6 PSI in primary and then I do the rest once I move to a keg.

 

 still not bad

[HVB]

 still not bad

no, works well in my process.  If I could seal my fermenter better I could do more but any helps in my mind.

[Big Nake]

So with this new process of using a bottling bucket and then using a clean & sanitized keg (which will be purged with CO2 from the ferment), I'm turning my attention to the "spund" and I'm hoping anyone with some experience can guide me. Seems like it would be straightforward to just use the port on the bottling bucket/fermenter to grab a gravity sample and once I get into the 1.015-1.020 range, drain the fermenter into the purged keg, seal it up and connect the spunding valve. I'm still wondering about the idea of properly sealing the hatch with a blast of forced CO2 and so the pressure in the keg will be such that the valve will register enough for me to adjust the valve to the 0.8 bar level. If there isn't enough pressure in the keg, the valve will show lower than 0.8 bar so what's the trick there? Anything I'm missing on the whole "catch the spund" idea? Err on the side of "more gravity left in the primary" as opposed to "less gravity", assuming that any excess will just bleed out?

[pkrone]

Sounds good to me.   No harm in hitting it w/ a little CO2 to make sure the lid is sealed and see an initial pressure on the gauge.   

[positiveContact]

Sounds good to me.   No harm in hitting it w/ a little CO2 to make sure the lid is sealed and see an initial pressure on the gauge.   

 

agreed.  I never bought that there was something magical about yeast derived CO2.  I think the benefits are probably some other aspects that won't be affected even by some amount of force carbing later on.

[HVB]

agreed.  I never bought that there was something magical about yeast derived CO2.  I think the benefits are probably some other aspects that won't be affected even by some amount of force carbing later on.

Before I was left unable to look at that site (low O2 one) I did read that if you plan to force carbonate you shouldn't even bother with any of the low oxygen methods. 

[Big Nake]

I have a rare situation here where I made two batches in December and some low-O2 ideas were used on those batches... quite a few... especially in the early part of the process: yeast + sugar in the water to lower O2, trifecta mix, underletting the mash, stirring slowly, using the mash cap, boiling a little slower, etc. But the batches finished up around the holidays and when I was on vacation so I wasn't able to spund them. So I cleaned and sanitized two kegs, filled one with an iodophor solution and pushed it to the other keg and then pushed it out of the second keg (with CO2) and then just open-racked them both to the kegs and force carbed them. One finished carbing this morning (a blonde ale) and the other will be done Thursday (a dry-hopped amber ale). If you believe that those late missteps will cancel out everything low-O2 that was done early then these batches should taste exactly like any other batches I've made. But I'm curious to see if the steps I took will be wiped out by the open transfer and force carbing. On Saturday I plan to do my first low-O2 beer with everything above plus a direct rack from primary to keg (through the port of a bottling bucket I'm going to use as a primary) and plus the idea of purging the keg with the CO2 from fermentation. Then I'll spund the beer and then I'll leave it for a bit and eventually get it cold and let it condition for a bit. Should be interesting to see how my tastebuds react to it.

I have been getting some interesting information from some of the members over there. These guys have gone down this road and they're sharing their experiences. I have known MANY of these guys from various forums in the past and they're good guys. Also, every single one of these brewers who have gone down this road have said that their low-O2 beers are head & shoulders above their old beers. Whether you reject the idea or maybe dislike the delivery, my only goal here is to learn the steps, try it and see for myself how it might impact my beers. That's it. If anyone there were to be rough around the edges in presenting their ideas or possibly being critical or judgmental of my processes, I'm willing to listen if the result is an improved process that results in better beer. I've also spent very little money on this... the parts for the spunding valve, a piece of foam board from HD for the mash cap ($5 or something), some new tubing, etc. Everything else I already had.

[HVB]

I have been getting some interesting information from some of the members over there. These guys have gone down this road and they're sharing their experiences. I have known MANY of these guys from various forums in the past and they're good guys. Also, every single one of these brewers who have gone down this road have said that their low-O2 beers are head & shoulders above their old beers. Whether you reject the idea or maybe dislike the delivery, my only goal here is to learn the steps, try it and see for myself how it might impact my beers. That's it. If anyone there were to be rough around the edges in presenting their ideas or possibly being critical or judgmental of my processes, I'm willing to listen if the result is an improved process that results in better beer. I've also spent very little money on this... the parts for the spunding valve, a piece of foam board from HD for the mash cap ($5 or something), some new tubing, etc. Everything else I already had.

That was my goal as well, the reason I was reading post till it was determined I could no longer do that.

I will try a few of the ideas like yeast de-ox and the trifectamix if I can figure out how much of it I need. Spunding is an area I am up in the air about.  I already partially do it when I cap my fermenter, but I do finish with CO2. I do not see myself going back to 60 minute boils though. 

[Big Nake]

Have you been able to access that board? If not, do you want me to ask them to loosen that up? I seem to have gotten on a decent vibe with these guys so they'll probably help. They may have also forgotten that they did that with your account. I'll ask if you want.

On the yeast + sugar and also the trifecta mix, there are some posts here from pkrone on that subject. I'll tell you what I'm doing but you may have to work backwards on the levels. On the yeast and sugar, pkrone mentioned 10g of each in 7 gallons of water (I think that's right). I use 5 gallons to mash and 2.5 to sparge so I took 6.6g of each in the mash and 3.3 in the sparge. Let it sit for 2 hours (longer would allow for O2 to creep back in, apparently) and make sure it's warm enough for the yeast to do its thing. He also mentioned that the trifecta mix was 40/40/20 and I somehow arrived at 1.66g for my 5 gallons of water (it's correct but I don't remember the equation). So .66g of SMB in the mash water, .66g of ascorbic acid and .33g of BTB. The jury is still out on what to do with BTB in the sparge or boil. I think I used it in both on the last 2 batches and I might make that call at the last minute when I brew this weekend. The SMB is supposedly your savior if you have excess O2 in your process because it scavenges the O2. But if your process is good and the SMB is not 'used up' by scavenging the O2 it results in 'fart beer' according to pkrone and some others over there. I don't expect my process to be so good that SMB will remain so I'm sticking with this amount until something tells me otherwise.

[positiveContact]

Before I was left unable to look at that site (low O2 one) I did read that if you plan to force carbonate you shouldn't even bother with any of the low oxygen methods.

Why? Makes no sense.

[Big Nake]

Why? Makes no sense.

A tank of CO2 also contains O2 so you're exposing the beer to more O2 that way. If you spund, that won't happen because the CO2 created by fermentation is 100% pure CO2. Someone mentioned that if you got a "tank of pure CO2" like the CO2 created by fermentation it would cost hundreds or maybe thousands of dollars. I don't know about any of that but many people have mentioned how good the beer tastes when it's spunded so I plan to try it on the next batch.

[positiveContact]

Sounds like when you put the beer on tap it's ruined.

[HVB]

Sounds like when you put the beer on tap it's ruined.

That is where my head went as well.

[Big Nake]

I remember asking about that too. When you force-carb at a higher PSI (like I do... 25-30psi) that CO2 is dissolving into the beer but when you're serving at a lower pressure that amount would be less as it's displacing the beer. Some of the guys over there have mentioned the beer getting a little "less fresh" towards the end of the keg as more CO2 is in there. But that's a common thing to happen regardless. I have told them that I'm a stranger in a strange land and that I have a lot of questions. If something like this example pops into my head I just ask and the answers come.

On this topic of spunding, it's been brought to my attention that some of these guy don't spund (their schedules don't allow for it, they don't have the valve, etc) and instead they either just move the beer to a keg and seal it up and assume that their carb level will be okay or else they allow the beer to fully ferment out and drop clear(er) and then they use a priming solution in the keg. I like that there are a couple different methods here... it allows for a bit of flexibility.

Also, understand I'm not here to advocate any of this. It interests me and I would like to try it to see what it does for my beers. I'm not trying to push any of it on anyone here. We all know that the information is there and some of the people on this board are looking at it and the information will eventually be here too (maybe not as much but some).

[positiveContact]

I really have to question how much O2 is in a co2 tank. Where is this info coming from?