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Can we talk about pkrone's "Trifecta anti-ox"?


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#1 ER Pemberton

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 08:09 AM

In the PICTURE OF YOUR PINT thread pkrone mentioned using 2.5 grams of "Trifecta Anti-Ox" mix... what is this? BTB, SMB and... what else? How much of each of the three and when do you add it?

Also, just to round this out, pkrone... what low-O2 methods are you currently using? I see you preboil and then chill. Are you 'racking' strike water to your MT or is your system setup where that's not an issue? I know you mentioned a cover that you fabricated for your MT to keep air out, etc. What else are you doing? Just looking to see which of these I could use. Maybe I'll have an open day sometime soon where I could take my time and implement some of these things.

#2 pkrone

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 11:08 AM

The trifecta is SMB/Ascorbic Acid/BTB in a 40/40/20 ratio.  I add it to the strike water just before adding it (the water) to the mash.      I have a RIMS set-up so I pump the strike water into the bottom of the mash tun to try and avoid splashing.     For 5 gallon batches I do a full-volume, no sparge mash.   After over-flowing my mash tun once attempting to do no-sparge on a 10 gallon batch, I do a minimal sparge mash.   :P          As soon as the mash tun is full, I cover the mash with my "mash cap", so there's zero head space above the mash water.  The mash cap I made is a couple of pieces of foam board I covered w/ aluminum tape.   I stir thoroughly, but gently for a few minutes, then start recirculating and go from there.  


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#3 ER Pemberton

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 11:36 AM

I know we've touched on this before but... when you recirc, how do you do it to avoid splashing? How do you handle any other wort-related tasks where splashing may occur? Stirring? Chilling? Transferring to a primary? I'm trying to get a handle on all of these pieces. I did buy some hi-temp tubing so I could transfer 160° strike water to the MT and I also got the SMB and the stainless chiller as opposed to the copper version. What is the total amount of the Trifecta mix? 40-40-20 but what are the individual weights/volumes? I could boil the strike water and chill it, use the trifecta mix and build a "mash-cap" but it seems like you just have to be "all-in" on this low-O2 thing and I wonder if I go 90% (or whatever) if I'll just strike out.

Oh, duh: 1g of SMB, 1g of ascorbic acid and ½g of BTB in the strike water. I might try that.

#4 neddles

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:07 PM

....but it seems like you just have to be "all-in" on this low-O2 thing and I wonder if I go 90% (or whatever) if I'll just strike out.

 

I don't think you have to be all-in. I am not. But I have made several incremental changes to my process over the last year or more and while it is purely anecdotal I don't think my beers have ever been better.  


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#5 ER Pemberton

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:17 PM

I don't think you have to be all-in. I am not. But I have made several incremental changes to my process over the last year or more and while it is purely anecdotal I don't think my beers have ever been better.

Okay, that's encouraging. Please outline what you have done. pkrone and anyone else who is dabbling in this please let me know what you're doing and how the results have been. I realize that everyone's system may place limitations on how low-O2 measures can be implemented but I started down this road and occasionally wonder if it's worth going further. Thanks.

#6 neddles

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:36 PM

Malt condition, BTB in mash, preboil with quick chill to strike temp., no copper, mash cap, minimal stirring, reduced boil vigor (tho not as low as whats recommended), 30 min boils (I don't think this was ever a part of the low O2 thing but I do wonder how it plays into reduction of heat stress from the boil). My Vienna lager was keg conditioned (primed) at the end of fermentation. I am currently working on the spunding timing vs. keg priming at the tail end of fermentation. Not brewing enough right now to get much more aggressive with changes. 


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#7 ER Pemberton

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:42 PM

I did get a spunding valve but never used it.

I am malt conditioning, using BTB, stainless chiller, stirring less, 30m boils. I could make a mash cap and boil strike water and chill it to strike temp but I wonder about chilling and reintroducing O2.

#8 drez77

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:44 PM

The one that throws me off this is boiling and then chilling the strike water.  I just hate to waste that much water.


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#9 neddles

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:52 PM

The one that throws me off this is boiling and then chilling the strike water.  I just hate to waste that much water.

 

Yeah I completely get that. I am in the fortunate position to have a well that draws from a water table that is fed by the lake I live on. Water down to my septic system or cast into the woods goes right back into that water table. 


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#10 ER Pemberton

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:54 PM

The one that throws me off this is boiling and then chilling the strike water.  I just hate to waste that much water.

As brewers, we really use a lot of water. On one hand it's the world's most abundant resource but... I know. Let's not go there. The next logical steps for me would be to use the trifect mix, mash cap and maybe instead of boiling first just raise my strike water to 160° as usual and then quietly transfer from the pot to the MT with the hi-temp tubing.

#11 neddles

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 02:01 PM

Oh, duh: 1g of SMB, 1g of ascorbic acid and ½g of BTB in the strike water. I might try that.

 

Where did you get this?


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#12 ER Pemberton

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 02:06 PM

Where did you get this?

pkrone's post in the PICTURE OF YOUR PINT thread said 2.5g of the trifecta mix and in this thread he said 40/40/20.

#13 neddles

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 02:20 PM

OK got it. I missed that in the other thread. Thank you.

Edited by neddles, 04 December 2017 - 02:21 PM.

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#14 ER Pemberton

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 02:42 PM

OK got it. I missed that in the other thread. Thank you.

I'm not sure I have seen it shown this way or if I've even heard anyone mention using ascorbic acid. I've heard the low-O2ers embrace SMB and also dismiss BTB for the most part. I think ascorbic acid is readily available in most supply shops and online so it should be easy to get. I already have a bag of SMB so implementing the trifecta mix should be easy.

From the interboobs:

Ascorbic Acid – Also known as vitamin C, ascorbic acid acts as an oxygen scavenger. Oxygen in beer creates oxidation, which results in stale flavors, often described as wet cardboard. Add a 1/2 teaspoon to your beer when it's time to bottle.

There is a VERY OLD link HERE where apparently Fix does not recommend using ascorbic acid in beer. pkrone, do you have any personal experience with what the trifecta mix has done for you or is it a similar thing to the BTB where different people experience different things?

#15 neddles

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 04:09 PM

The low O2 thing has been evolving since the original paper. BTB is not dismissed in fact I think it has been pretty well embraced for usage in the mash. Pkrone is going to be more up on this than me tho.
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#16 ER Pemberton

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 04:26 PM

The low O2 thing has been evolving since the original paper. BTB is not dismissed in fact I think it has been pretty well embraced for usage in the mash. Pkrone is going to be more up on this than me tho.

Okay, that's good to know. I feel like the original thinking was that BTB might be able to do something similar to some of these low-O2 measures but then it seemed more like a long-term O2 inhibitor which would reduce the likelihood of oxidized beer over time. Confusing that issue further... some people seemed to notice a difference in their BTB beer immediately. I would also point out that the original low-O2 idea seemed to insist that it was "all or nothing" and even then... the improvement to the beer (while AMAZING!) was fleeting... like a week after the beer was kegged it was already losing some of its luster. I have never attempted a full-blown low-O2 beer and I don't want to perpetuate any false information so it may just be that I'm behind on it. Still, my mind is open to it and if I hear of pieces of the low-O2 thing that have positive impacts and they're easy for me to incorporate... I'm in. :D

#17 pkrone

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 07:31 PM

I know we've touched on this before but... when you recirc, how do you do it to avoid splashing? How do you handle any other wort-related tasks where splashing may occur? Stirring? Chilling? Transferring to a primary? I'm trying to get a handle on all of these pieces. I did buy some hi-temp tubing so I could transfer 160° strike water to the MT and I also got the SMB and the stainless chiller as opposed to the copper version. What is the total amount of the Trifecta mix? 40-40-20 but what are the individual weights/volumes? I could boil the strike water and chill it, use the trifecta mix and build a "mash-cap" but it seems like you just have to be "all-in" on this low-O2 thing and I wonder if I go 90% (or whatever) if I'll just strike out.

Oh, duh: 1g of SMB, 1g of ascorbic acid and ½g of BTB in the strike water. I might try that.

 

So, the way I avoid splashing when I recirc is mainly a function of my RIMS.   I made my mash cap with a little cut-out for the return line so it holds that tubing at the top of the water, but below the surface, so no bubbling/splashing. Here's a pic from an early test run.

20170316_161450_resized_zpsxogqz5i7.jpg

 

The trifecta is there to make up for not being "all in".    I have some brass in my system, I get some splashing when I run off into the boil kettle, etc.   That's what those oxygen scavengers are there for.   I've also started purging all the lines in my system with CO2 before I start brewing.     Little differences...

 

I have gotten more meticulous on my transfers too.   I never secondary a beer.   I always fill my receiving keg w/ sanitizer completely and then purge it w/ CO2 and push the beer under CO2 to the keg.     You should really try spunding too.   You'll hate it at first because the beer will be a little tougher to clear, but the effect on the finished product is awesome.     I have trouble spunding because I miss the window of opportunity due to work etc.  That's why I tried the unitank thing.  

 

If you don't want to boil/chill your strike water to deoxygenate it, you can let yeast do it for you.  I add 10 gr each of baker's yeast and table sugar to 7.5 gallons of strike water.   In 2 hours the DO level is about zero.   I do this on all of my 10 gallon batches because of the time/energy it takes to boil/chill 15 gallons of water.   Works great.   Just a little more lag time.

 

pete


Edited by pkrone, 04 December 2017 - 07:33 PM.

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#18 drez77

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 05:58 AM


If you don't want to boil/chill your strike water to deoxygenate it, you can let yeast do it for you.  I add 10 gr each of baker's yeast and table sugar to 7.5 gallons of strike water.   In 2 hours the DO level is about zero.   I do this on all of my 10 gallon batches because of the time/energy it takes to boil/chill 15 gallons of water.   Works great.   Just a little more lag time.

 

pete

 

That is something I did not know but would be willing to try and truthfully never read before.  7.5g is the typical amount of water I have for most of my 5g BIAB beers.  Now, I still get splashing when I lift the bag out.  I could avoid that by going to a 2 vessel set up with my RIMS, I have all the kettles already but not sure I am ready to.  That said, I will never be all SS, my CFC is not going anywhere at the moment.


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#19 neddles

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:06 AM

I always fill my receiving keg w/ sanitizer completely and then purge it w/ CO2 and push the beer under CO2 to the keg.

 

The keg full of sanitizer and complete purge is another change I implemented last year.

 

 That said, I will never be all SS, my CFC is not going anywhere at the moment.

If I understand it correctly that is where the BTB is your friend. 


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#20 drez77

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:11 AM

The keg full of sanitizer and complete purge is another change I implemented last year.

 

If I understand it correctly that is where the BTB is your friend. 

 I think you are correct on the BTB.  Either way,  now that it is available at my LHBS I do not plan to stop using it.  I have not done the complete purge in a long time.  That is a small tweak that I would implement.  The other thought is to sanitize a keg and then fill that with the blow off CO2 from fermentation. 


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