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Left Hand vs White Labs


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#21 denny

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:48 AM

Maybe that's why there's so much crap/craft beer on the market these days.    

 

 I tend to think other factors are more responsible, but the lack of lab testing doesn't help.  OTOH, I know of more than a few breweries who produce outstanding beer without a lab.


Edited by denny, 20 November 2017 - 09:49 AM.


#22 Big Nake

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:00 AM

I would think that it would be a necessary evil and/or an insurance policy to have a way to verify that your yeast is good when it's ready to pitch. This is not the type of thing that you can see with the naked eye and I'm sure that one's sense of smell isn't enough either. Yeast is the heavy hitter and the franchise player and you need to make sure it's in good shape. With contaminants everywhere, high taxation on your product and relatively slim margins it seems very dangerous not to pay close attention to it.

#23 HVB

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:33 AM

I did some reading on this and it seems like Denny said that many have pointed the finger at WL before.  Bells and Founders I guess had issues that traced back to WL.

 

I see WL also has this disclaimer on the Yeastman site before purchase, bold added by me.

 

Terms and Conditions: While we strive to produce the best products possible, yeast and bacteria are living, microbiological products that are subject to environmental conditions, for example, during shipping and storage/use at the customer. Therefore, the total liability of White Labs to customers shall in no circumstances exceed the sum of the purchase price of products from White Labs. White Labs is not responsible for other ingredient costs, sales costs, labor, etc., but we stand behind our product and our promise to you is that each batch is rigorously tested before it is released to you. While we do our best to plan, schedule, and ensure that we have sufficient stock on all of our strains and every order ships complete, on some occasions we may run out of stock due to a number of factors including high demand, low concentration on cultures, and QC-related issues.



#24 Big Nake

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:39 AM

Hmm, interesting. I remember being at a local brewery where there was an abrupt exit by the original brewery (a lease issue, IIRC) and a quick entrance by another entity who had no brewer so they asked someone that I know if they would brew beer although he had never brewed commercially or with commercial equipment. He asked me to come over and explore the brewery just as it was left by the original occupants. As we explored we found giant plastic bottles of White Labs yeast that we had never seen before... they were like a gallon of milk. That story combined with my conversation with Greg Noonan at his brewery in Vermont (where he mentioned that his brewer had destroyed his sample of Ayinger yeast so now he had to purchase another one) made me wonder how commercial breweries maintain their yeast. Do they use it over and over? Do they have QC measures in place? Do they occasionally screw up and produce 600 gallons of garbage beer?

#25 denny

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:52 AM

Hmm, interesting. I remember being at a local brewery where there was an abrupt exit by the original brewery (a lease issue, IIRC) and a quick entrance by another entity who had no brewer so they asked someone that I know if they would brew beer although he had never brewed commercially or with commercial equipment. He asked me to come over and explore the brewery just as it was left by the original occupants. As we explored we found giant plastic bottles of White Labs yeast that we had never seen before... they were like a gallon of milk. That story combined with my conversation with Greg Noonan at his brewery in Vermont (where he mentioned that his brewer had destroyed his sample of Ayinger yeast so now he had to purchase another one) made me wonder how commercial breweries maintain their yeast. Do they use it over and over? Do they have QC measures in place? Do they occasionally screw up and produce 600 gallons of garbage beer?

 

Most smaller commercial breweries that I'm familiar with, say in the 20-30 bbl. range, simply xfer the yeast from one fermenter to another for a set number of uses.  Then they order a new pitch.  Large ones, like Sierra Nevada, will have labs that test and reculture the yeast.  Those in between may have a small lab, but usually just do the xfer from fermenter to fermenter.  Remember, 600 gal. is only 20 bbl.  That's a small brewery, and it's not uncommon for them to have to dump batches.


Edited by denny, 20 November 2017 - 11:53 AM.


#26 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:59 PM

For most breweries, no testing.  They can't afford the equipment or personnel.

 

They are top 50 by volume. That doesn't fly with me.



#27 Patrick C.

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 07:41 PM

History repeating itself? Consistency is one reason the macros got to be macros.

#28 HVB

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:25 AM

Some interesting information in here http://goodbeerhunti...t-hands-lawsuit



#29 denny

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:37 AM

Some interesting information in here http://goodbeerhunti...t-hands-lawsuit

 

what I found most interesting were the comments that most breweries, even the big ones, lack the ability to test for it.  What was stunning was reading that White Labs can't test for it, either.



#30 HVB

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:00 PM

what I found most interesting were the comments that most breweries, even the big ones, lack the ability to test for it.  What was stunning was reading that White Labs can't test for it, either.

I agree with that.  I wonder is Wyeast can test for it.



#31 denny

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 02:25 PM

I agree with that.  I wonder is Wyeast can test for it.

 

Dunno.  I'll ask next time I see someone from there.



#32 positiveContact

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:02 PM

what I found most interesting were the comments that most breweries, even the big ones, lack the ability to test for it.  What was stunning was reading that White Labs can't test for it, either.

 

yeah, that is their whole business.  they should have that covered.



#33 HVB

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:04 PM

Dunno. I'll ask next time I see someone from there.


Thanks Denny!

#34 Big Nake

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:42 PM

Here's my question...

In the suit, Left Hand charges that contaminated yeast sold by White Labs last year infected a number of beers with the Saccharomyces cerevisiae variant Diastaticus, a wild yeast strain known to cause secondary fermentation.


... is this diastaticus something that could haunt any strain of yeast or just the funky ones?

#35 HVB

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 05:16 PM

Here's my question...


... is this diastaticus something that could haunt any strain of yeast or just the funky ones?


Any it seems. The Stout left hand had issues with was not a wild or funky beer.

#36 Big Nake

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 05:20 PM

Any it seems. The Stout left hand had issues with was not a wild or funky beer.

:covreyes:

I haven't brewed with White Labs yeast in awhile. I was considering some 940 at some point and I'm sure I won't be dissuaded.

#37 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 06:54 PM

Honestly I don't see what the problem is. If you want to play in the big boy world market and not have regional breweries everywhere so fresh beer gets to the shelf quickly then you need to pasteurize the beer. If you dont have microbiological lab controls and rigorous quality measures then you aren't ready for big boy pants. You can't have high quality fresh unpasteurized centrally brewed and world wide distributed at a competitive price. Its not possible.

#38 denny

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 10:02 AM

Any it seems. The Stout left hand had issues with was not a wild or funky beer.

 

Yep...any




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