37 replies to this topic

[HVB]

This is the link I was trying to post.

https://www.courthou...ked-beer-sales/

[Big Nake]

Okay so is it possible that whatever they found in the bottles during the testing actually came from some other spot in the brewery itself and NOT from the yeast? There is yeast everywhere so how can Left Hand prove that it came from White Labs and not somewhere else? When I went on a tour of New Glarus in Wisconsin, they had a yeast lab in the middle of the brewery where they would do a series of tests on a number of things but they would test yeast at various stages and they would be able to tell if there was an issue with yeast before it was pitched into a batch. But don't most breweries get samples of yeast from a manufacturer and then just maintain it themselves for periods of time? If so, the yeast could become contaminated from being mishandled in the brewery. Seems like it would be hard for LH to prove it was White Labs' fault.

[positiveContact]

Okay so is it possible that whatever they found in the bottles during the testing actually came from some other spot in the brewery itself and NOT from the yeast? There is yeast everywhere so how can Left Hand prove that it came from White Labs and not somewhere else? When I went on a tour of New Glarus in Wisconsin, they had a yeast lab in the middle of the brewery where they would do a series of tests on a number of things but they would test yeast at various stages and they would be able to tell if there was an issue with yeast before it was pitched into a batch. But don't most breweries get samples of yeast from a manufacturer and then just maintain it themselves for periods of time? If so, the yeast could become contaminated from being mishandled in the brewery. Seems like it would be hard for LH to prove it was White Labs' fault.

 

I think they'd need to first identify what the problem microorganism was and then find it in some of WL product that hasn't been opened.

 

really this just looks like a way for them to get some consumers to think this is true and continue to buy their product.

[HVB]

I agree with both of you. I look at this as we had a brewery infection but it was their fault. In a way I am surprised this suit has not been tried before.

[Big Nake]

One thing that crossed my mind was... who is more likely to have better control? A yeast company who produces yeast over and over and over (and who probably has very strict control over their product under lab conditions) or a brewery who uses the same yeast over & over and where a contamination is far more likely to exist? I don't know anything about LH but it seems this situation would not go in their favor. If you have a commercial brewery you also need to have some very strict control over your own product. New Glarus explained that the way they test, not only would they know about the problem but they check at various points and would be able to go directly to the point (or points) in question to resolve the issue.

[positiveContact]

One thing that crossed my mind was... who is more likely to have better control? A yeast company who produces yeast over and over and over (and who probably has very strict control over their product under lab conditions) or a brewery who uses the same yeast over & over and where a contamination is far more likely to exist? I don't know anything about LH but it seems this situation would not go in their favor. If you have a commercial brewery you also need to have some very strict control over your own product. New Glarus explained that the way they test, not only would they know about the problem but they check at various points and would be able to go directly to the point (or points) in question to resolve the issue.

 

yeah, white labs is big and CANNOT afford to have issues like this and if they didn't already have the right lab practices in place they wouldn't still be in business now.

[denny]

According to a local brewer, the problem is not limited to White.  He claims that all yeast manufacturers have the same problem.

[MyaCullen]

According to a local brewer, the problem is not limited to White.  He claims that all yeast manufacturers have the same problem.

seems strange 

[Big Nake]

seems strange

Or that local brewer is full of dookie.

I once made a starter with some yeast (probably Wyeast or White Labs) and the starter ended up really funky and I tossed it out before it came in contact with wort. I started thinking that the yeast was bad from the start and then I realized that no one would believe a brewer (especially a homebrewer) over the yeast lab.

[denny]

Or that local brewer is full of dookie.

I once made a starter with some yeast (probably Wyeast or White Labs) and the starter ended up really funky and I tossed it out before it came in contact with wort. I started thinking that the yeast was bad from the start and then I realized that no one would believe a brewer (especially a homebrewer) over the yeast lab.

 

Maybe, but I don't think so.  Talking to Drew about it, he mentioned that there have been rumors about this at White for years but this is the first time action has been taken.

[HVB]

Maybe, but I don't think so. Talking to Drew about it, he mentioned that there have been rumors about this at White for years but this is the first time action has been taken.

Interesting, I would have thought if it was a big issue it would have come up before.

[MyaCullen]

is this a "sour beer strain" ?

 

or a true wild contaminant? 

 

I'm just wondering if it's a cross contamination issue as opposed to a systemic contamination

[SchwanzBrewer]

So in my unprofessional opinion, how the hell are the yeast companies the problem? How can the 44th largest craft brewery not employ competent microbiologists that can find and control the amount of yeast going into bottle conditioning? I can imagine that a couple runs might make it by quality if the yeast wranglers had followed instructions from White Labs, but not $2 million worth. If I were running a big brewery I'd be on my yeast wranglers and quality managers like a fly on fresh shit to make sure the product was consistent and not blowing up.

[neddles]

I would guess LH had a pretty good idea that WL was the source of contamination before they dropped the cash and risk on a lawsuit. Who knows though. 

[3rd party JKor]

So in my unprofessional opinion, how the hell are the yeast companies the problem? How can the 44th largest craft brewery not employ competent microbiologists that can find and control the amount of yeast going into bottle conditioning? I can imagine that a couple runs might make it by quality if the yeast wranglers had followed instructions from White Labs, but not $2 million worth. If I were running a big brewery I'd be on my yeast wranglers and quality managers like a fly on fresh shit to make sure the product was consistent and not blowing up.

 

 

I'm not making any comment on how this will go legally, but I agree that LH should have a competent enough lab to have found this issue before they shipped the beer, let alone made it. 

 

If some of the above posts are true and this is a known issue then it's doubly on LH because they weren't checking for a known issue. 

 

ETA:  The article said they've consistently been finding 'diastaticus' in beers brewed with White Labs yeast, but I have a feeling if they can't prove it was in the yeast pitch before they used it then they are going to have an uphill battle.

Edited by JKor, 20 November 2017 - 03:09 AM.

[Big Nake]

I have no idea what steps are taken in a commercial brewery but if you had 600 gallons of wort ready to go and you were about to pitch yeast into that, wouldn't the brewery do a quick check on the yeast to ensure it's not contaminated? Or is a test like that more time-consuming so they just pitch anyway.

[pkrone]

As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.   Certainly White Labs has a huge responsibility to produce a reliable product.    But LH has an equal, if not greater, responsibility to make sure a quality product is hitting the shelves.  Blaming a supplier after you (Left Hand) let an inferior product get distributed and sold is just weak.     It reflects very poorly on that brewery in my opinion. 

[shaggaroo]

The chemist in me really liked this quote from the article "a nitrogen cascade occurs when a stout carbonated with nitrogen "... made me laugh; I'd like to see that. 

[denny]

I have no idea what steps are taken in a commercial brewery but if you had 600 gallons of wort ready to go and you were about to pitch yeast into that, wouldn't the brewery do a quick check on the yeast to ensure it's not contaminated? Or is a test like that more time-consuming so they just pitch anyway.

 

For most breweries, no testing.  They can't afford the equipment or personnel.

[pkrone]

For most breweries, no testing.  They can't afford the equipment or personnel.

 

Maybe that's why there's so much crap/craft beer on the market these days.