32 replies to this topic

[darkmagneto]

Howdy - I took about two years off from brewing and going to be getting back on the horse here in the next few weeks.  When I took the break, I was just starting to experiment with water adjustments to improve my beers.  I'd like to pick up on that topic.  Any must read articles/books or podcasts on that topic?

 

Also.....what's the go to hoppy pale ale recipe that you go to.  Just trying to keep it simple on my first brew in a while.

 

Cheers!

Mark

 

[BlKtRe]

Paging Ken.....

WB, I remember when you were here more often. What style is up next?

[darkmagneto]

Paging Ken.....

WB, I remember when you were here more often. What style is up next?

 

Yeah, was here for a while.  I like IPAs, belgian anything and stouts.  

[matt6150]

I like the Water book, I thought it was a good read. Then get a water sample, download Bru'n water and go from there. And ask questions here, plenty of knowledgeable people regarding water.

 

As far as the pale ale recipe this is a good place to start, at least the mash bill. Hops could be adjusted to what you like. Great recipe!

 

Welcome back!

[Big Nake]

Mark: I didn't know you stopped brewing. I knew you were crazy busy but I thought you just stopped hanging out at Emmett's. As far as I can tell, the water that we use is still very similar to the numbers we have always bounced around. There are enough brewers in our area and using Lake Michigan water (and posting the numbers) it's almost as if anyone could get a sample done by Ward Labs and we would all benefit. That said, I had the water tested in 2006 and 2011 and the numbers were similar. I do think the pH has gone up a bit. If you decide to have a test done, please post your results. The numbers that I have been working with all along have been Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27 (which is SO4-S of 9... so 9x3) and bicarbonate of 138. For years I thought I just had dumb luck with brewing water... I like softer styles but my water is not really good for them. I was wrong. We have good brewing water as long as you address the higher-than-desired bicarb which is easy to do with lactic acid. I suggest you invest in a very good (but reasonably priced pH meter... Omega 7011) which runs about $100. Make sure you have some calcium chloride, calcium sulfate and lactic acid in your toolbox and you're ready to go. Ask whatever specific questions you want and I'll tell you what I do... but that's just me. The way I approach it makes it easy for anyone to adjust things to their own taste buds. Cheers, good to see you back here and happy recent birthday.

There is a thread HERE about the meter.

[denny]

I find the water book a great soporific.  You can learn everything you need to know about water in a much more understandable format by reading the water knowledge page at Bru'nwater.

[MyaCullen]

I find the water book a great soporific.  You can learn everything you need to know about water in a much more understandable format by reading the water knowledge page at Bru'nwater.

thanks for making me learn a new word   Doctor English

 

I've benefited greatly from Bru'n Water and here.

 

Unaltered the water numbers that Ken posted should make good neutral,  Pale to Amberish beer, once you up the calcium, and remove the chlorine, it's almost identical to my water.  I typically knock down the bicarbonate by adding lactic acid to get down to 75 ish ppm (or lower), as I find it helps remove that harshness associated with it.  

[darkmagneto]

Mark: I didn't know you stopped brewing. I knew you were crazy busy but I thought you just stopped hanging out at Emmett's. As far as I can tell, the water that we use is still very similar to the numbers we have always bounced around. There are enough brewers in our area and using Lake Michigan water (and posting the numbers) it's almost as if anyone could get a sample done by Ward Labs and we would all benefit. That said, I had the water tested in 2006 and 2011 and the numbers were similar. I do think the pH has gone up a bit. If you decide to have a test done, please post your results. The numbers that I have been working with all along have been Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27 (which is SO4-S of 9... so 9x3) and bicarbonate of 138. For years I thought I just had dumb luck with brewing water... I like softer styles but my water is not really good for them. I was wrong. We have good brewing water as long as you address the higher-than-desired bicarb which is easy to do with lactic acid. I suggest you invest in a very good (but reasonably priced pH meter... Omega 7011) which runs about $100. Make sure you have some calcium chloride, calcium sulfate and lactic acid in your toolbox and you're ready to go. Ask whatever specific questions you want and I'll tell you what I do... but that's just me. The way I approach it makes it easy for anyone to adjust things to their own taste buds. Cheers, good to see you back here and happy recent birthday.

There is a thread HERE about the meter.

 

Thanks Ken!  Yep, last brew I did was November of 2015.  I brewed a Mexican Chocolate Stout.  I'm going to spend the weekend cleaning my equipment and getting that ready to go.  I'll check out that meter.  What's a good water profile for IPA?  Is there a go to profile that people are liking?

 

Cheers!

[3rd party JKor]

Welcome back dm! I'm in the same spot. I think my last brew was around october/november '15 as well. I'm ready to go again. Finally recovering from the move and work stuff getting crazy. I need to send the water at the new place in to grt checked.

[Mike Green]

Here is a link to Bru N Water

In the last couple of years, there have been some new technics developed such as 30 min. mash,30 min. boils and a new method for making yeast starters. 

There has been a couple of cool projects started with Brewery Control   and Fermentation control

 http://www.homebrewt...ad.php?t=464348

http://www.homebrewt...ad.php?t=586476

http://www.homebrewt...ad.php?t=587425

http://www.homebrewt...ad.php?t=466106

Edited by Mike Green, 14 October 2017 - 11:11 AM.

[denny]

thanks for making me learn a new word   Doctor English

 

I've benefited greatly from Bru'n Water and here.

 

Unaltered the water numbers that Ken posted should make good neutral,  Pale to Amberish beer, once you up the calcium, and remove the chlorine, it's almost identical to my water.  I typically knock down the bicarbonate by adding lactic acid to get down to 75 ish ppm (or lower), as I find it helps remove that harshness associated with it.  

 

Just call me Mr. Language Person!

[Big Nake]

Thanks Ken!  Yep, last brew I did was November of 2015.  I brewed a Mexican Chocolate Stout.  I'm going to spend the weekend cleaning my equipment and getting that ready to go.  I'll check out that meter.  What's a good water profile for IPA?  Is there a go to profile that people are liking?
 
Cheers!

At some point I suggested that people post water profiles that they use for various styles just as a reference. Most people shot that down saying that it wouldn't work across the board. The approach I take works for me and is very simple. Others will do things on a much higher level but I choose to go easy on the additions. Remember when we both made "salty" beers? (I'm pretty sure that was you)... well I choose to avoid that. For IPA, you want your sulfate number to be higher because sulfate accentuates a crisper, sharper beer where chloride is better for a smoother, rounder beer like a Vienna Lager or Festbier. With our water, I might add a gram of calcium chloride and 2 grams of gypsum for an IPA. Oh yeah, you might need one of those small gram scales (they measure in 4 or 5 different units including ounces) and you can find them on Amazon for less than $10 usually. If you want to get together to talk about it, let me know. I'm leaving for New Mexico tomorrow and back on 10/23... after that I'm around for awhile. Cheers.

[MyaCullen]

At some point I suggested that people post water profiles that they use for various styles just as a reference. Most people shot that down saying that it wouldn't work across the board. The approach I take works for me and is very simple. Others will do things on a much higher level but I choose to go easy on the additions. Remember when we both made "salty" beers? (I'm pretty sure that was you)... well I choose to avoid that. For IPA, you want your sulfate number to be higher because sulfate accentuates a crisper, sharper beer where chloride is better for a smoother, rounder beer like a Vienna Lager or Festbier. With our water, I might add a gram of calcium chloride and 2 grams of gypsum for an IPA. Oh yeah, you might need one of those small gram scales (they measure in 4 or 5 different units including ounces) and you can find them on Amazon for less than $10 usually. If you want to get together to talk about it, let me know. I'm leaving for New Mexico tomorrow and back on 10/23... after that I'm around for awhile. Cheers.

I use a Harbor Freight gram scale, works great for salts, hops, and small grain additions

[djinkc]

I find the water book a great soporific.  You can learn everything you need to know about water in a much more understandable format by reading the water knowledge page at Bru'nwater.

 

I made it to page 29 in March 2016.  Still on page 29.

[Big Nake]

I made it to page 29 in March 2016.  Still on page 29.

I admit it: Any of the books that go really, really deep into detail that I don't really need to know... my eyes glaze over. Fine. Call me simple. I'm good with it. What I prefer is the summarized nugget of wisdom that I can use. One part of the water book mentioned that pH strips are for amateurs. Of course, we are amateurs. But it made me think a little bit and it sent me towards a meter. The first meter I bought (a cheap Milwaukee jobbie) was terrible. Enter the Omega meter I bought... it's great and I really just like knowing what I'm dealing with instead of trying to match the color of the strip against a key on the package that may have faded or whatever. If that's all I got out of the water book, so be it. The books make my beer bunker look classy.

[Big Nake]

I'll lay out my strategy here. Some may say that I'm working inside of too small of a box and I get that. This is a process that works nicely for me... a German & Czech lager fan. I may not be able to help with Belgians or Stouts but I'm sure that someone else can participate here.

So the water again: Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27, Bicarb: 138.

My tools: Lactic acid, calcium chloride, calcium sulfate (gypsum), pH meter, gram scale, EZ_Water. I use EZ_Water just to get the balance now. I like Bru'N'Water but it's more involved and although I learned a few things from it, I don't use it much anymore. Cheers to Martin for designing it & sharing it with us.

I mash with about 5 gallons of water and do one sparge with about 2.5 gallons. Many, many of my beers come in around 5% and I don't make a lot of giant beers so this keeps things simple.

I have found that to get my mash pH into the 5.2 to 5.4 range, I need around 4ml of lactic acid in the strike water. The lactic acid helps to neutralize the bicarbonate. High levels of bicarb act like a buffer in water which makes it tough to lower the pH. The lactic acid neutralizes the bicarb so that we can get the pH of the mash where we want it. Grains play a role because darker malts have more acidity to help lower pH but I have found that they don't lower it by A LOT. Also, calcium chloride and calcium sulfate lower pH as well but again... not by A LOT. So about 4ml of acid goes into the strike water as its heating. Some people like acid malt here too. I have some and I occasionally use it but the acid is just more convenient.

Many people have said that you want about 50ppm of calcium. Some have said that any magic that would occur at 50ppm would also occur at 40ppm. Others have mentioned that upwards of 50ppm is even better. Calcium is supposed to be a yeast aid and it also helps with clarity. I decided to go for 60ppm of calcium and luckily I would get some calcium from calcium chloride and calcium sulfate because I'm starting with only 34ppm of ca. I have found that if I add about 3 grams of either of those two salts I will get to about 60ppm (EZ_Water confirms this). But how much of each to add? Chloride brings out a soft, round, full and smooth character in beer. Helles, festbier, dunkel, Vienna lager, etc. Sulfate brings out a crisp & sharp character: pale ales, IPAs, ESBs, Reds, etc. I have found that for gold beers like pilsner, helles, American Premium, etc., that I do not need anymore sulfate in the water than the 27ppm that I start with. I realize some people dump a bunch of sulfate in their pilsner water but for me (all of this is based on my preferences) I like lower sulfate. So for a gold lager like that, it's 3 grams of calcium chloride into the strike water. For something like a Vienna Lager, Dunkel, American Dark, I like to add some sulfate to keep the finish from getting too malty. I might go with .5 grams sulfate, 2.5 chloride. Or 1 gram sulfate and 2 grams chloride. As the styles go hoppier, I increase the sulfate and decrease the chloride but I never really go nuts with the sulfate... maybe I have a low tolerance for it or something. For something like a pale ale, IPA (which I don't make much), red ale, etc. I might go 1.5 grams of each which would give the water more sulfate than chloride because I'm starting with more sulfate. For a gold lager the final chloride number might be 65-70 while the sulfate stays where it is... 27. For a pale ale, ESB, Red ale, etc. I might have both numbers around 50-55ppm. The balance of the chloride & sulfate is what I'm looking at. There has been a lot of talk about "the chloride-to-sulfate ratio" and how it impacts beer. This process works well for me and I can taste the difference it makes in my beers. Some brewers have asked if 50ppm of both is the same as 250ppm of both... I don't know because I don't get my numbers that high but many brewers do. For those who jack up the numbers like that, please add your experience here.

Some of this requires some testing. You can "back-chloride" or "back-sulfate" a keg of beer (boil water, add some chloride or sulfate, add it to the keg). You can even take a pinch of either one and put it right into your glass of beer so you can see the differences.

Last thing: Far too much of one or the other can cause problems. I had an email from a guy who said his beers lacked depth and they were really harsh. He told me he added 5 grams of gypsum to his beers because his calcium was low and someone told him to add it. I suggested he get his water tested and it turned out that he had 5 times more sulfate in his water than chloride. That would make a really mouth-puckering beer... harsh and dry. I'm sure that some others here can post numbers for stouts and various Belgian styles.

Last: I do add another 2ml of acid to my sparge water to keep the bicarb down (it's neutralized at that point) but the calcium chloride and sulfate are only added to the mash... for me. I do not futz with the magnesium or sodium. Some people use magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt) but I have heard over and over that you don't need to add more Mg.

[darkmagneto]

I'll lay out my strategy here. Some may say that I'm working inside of too small of a box and I get that. This is a process that works nicely for me... a German & Czech lager fan. I may not be able to help with Belgians or Stouts but I'm sure that someone else can participate here.

So the water again: Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27, Bicarb: 138.

My tools: Lactic acid, calcium chloride, calcium sulfate (gypsum), pH meter, gram scale, EZ_Water. I use EZ_Water just to get the balance now. I like Bru'N'Water but it's more involved and although I learned a few things from it, I don't use it much anymore. Cheers to Martin for designing it & sharing it with us.

I mash with about 5 gallons of water and do one sparge with about 2.5 gallons. Many, many of my beers come in around 5% and I don't make a lot of giant beers so this keeps things simple.

I have found that to get my mash pH into the 5.2 to 5.4 range, I need around 4ml of lactic acid in the strike water. The lactic acid helps to neutralize the bicarbonate. High levels of bicarb act like a buffer in water which makes it tough to lower the pH. The lactic acid neutralizes the bicarb so that we can get the pH of the mash where we want it. Grains play a role because darker malts have more acidity to help lower pH but I have found that they don't lower it by A LOT. Also, calcium chloride and calcium sulfate lower pH as well but again... not by A LOT. So about 4ml of acid goes into the strike water as its heating. Some people like acid malt here too. I have some and I occasionally use it but the acid is just more convenient.

Many people have said that you want about 50ppm of calcium. Some have said that any magic that would occur at 50ppm would also occur at 40ppm. Others have mentioned that upwards of 50ppm is even better. Calcium is supposed to be a yeast aid and it also helps with clarity. I decided to go for 60ppm of calcium and luckily I would get some calcium from calcium chloride and calcium sulfate because I'm starting with only 34ppm of ca. I have found that if I add about 3 grams of either of those two salts I will get to about 60ppm (EZ_Water confirms this). But how much of each to add? Chloride brings out a soft, round, full and smooth character in beer. Helles, festbier, dunkel, Vienna lager, etc. Sulfate brings out a crisp & sharp character: pale ales, IPAs, ESBs, Reds, etc. I have found that for gold beers like pilsner, helles, American Premium, etc., that I do not need anymore sulfate in the water than the 27ppm that I start with. I realize some people dump a bunch of sulfate in their pilsner water but for me (all of this is based on my preferences) I like lower sulfate. So for a gold lager like that, it's 3 grams of calcium chloride into the strike water. For something like a Vienna Lager, Dunkel, American Dark, I like to add some sulfate to keep the finish from getting too malty. I might go with .5 grams sulfate, 2.5 chloride. Or 1 gram sulfate and 2 grams chloride. As the styles go hoppier, I increase the sulfate and decrease the chloride but I never really go nuts with the sulfate... maybe I have a low tolerance for it or something. For something like a pale ale, IPA (which I don't make much), red ale, etc. I might go 1.5 grams of each which would give the water more sulfate than chloride because I'm starting with more sulfate. For a gold lager the final chloride number might be 65-70 while the sulfate stays where it is... 27. For a pale ale, ESB, Red ale, etc. I might have both numbers around 50-55ppm. The balance of the chloride & sulfate is what I'm looking at. There has been a lot of talk about "the chloride-to-sulfate ratio" and how it impacts beer. This process works well for me and I can taste the difference it makes in my beers. Some brewers have asked if 50ppm of both is the same as 250ppm of both... I don't know because I don't get my numbers that high but many brewers do. For those who jack up the numbers like that, please add your experience here.

Some of this requires some testing. You can "back-chloride" or "back-sulfate" a keg of beer (boil water, add some chloride or sulfate, add it to the keg). You can even take a pinch of either one and put it right into your glass of beer so you can see the differences.

Last thing: Far too much of one or the other can cause problems. I had an email from a guy who said his beers lacked depth and they were really harsh. He told me he added 5 grams of gypsum to his beers because his calcium was low and someone told him to add it. I suggested he get his water tested and it turned out that he had 5 times more sulfate in his water than chloride. That would make a really mouth-puckering beer... harsh and dry. I'm sure that some others here can post numbers for stouts and various Belgian styles.

Last: I do add another 2ml of acid to my sparge water to keep the bicarb down (it's neutralized at that point) but the calcium chloride and sulfate are only added to the mash... for me. I do not futz with the magnesium or sodium. Some people use magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt) but I have heard over and over that you don't need to add more Mg.

 

Hey Ken - you're just using filtered tap water, yes?  No mixing of distilled and tap?  Also....when you sent your water in to get tested, did you run it through your filter first or just use plain tap water?  I'll send mine in and we can compare notes.

Edited by darkmagneto, 14 October 2017 - 04:26 PM.

[Big Nake]

Hey Ken - you're just using filtered tap water, yes?  No mixing of distilled and tap?  Also....when you sent your water in to get tested, did you run it through your filter first or just use plain tap water?  I'll send mine in and we can compare notes.

Yes, I'm using 100% filtered Lake Michigan water on just about every beer. The filtering is just to remove the chlorine. At some point I did use some percentage of distilled water which was an improvement in the beers and I thought it was a magic bullet. But what I learned was that the distilled water was lowering the bicarb from the start (which is good, no question) but using the acid to neutralize the bicarb works just as well so no more lugging distilled water home from the store. Plus... using some percentage of distilled is going to lower all of the other ions too... calcium would be lower, etc. so distilled is no longer necessary and it's nice to know I can make all of these styles with our water... very reassuring. I sent my sample to Ward labs after going through the filter. The filter DOES NOT remove any of the water ions, just the chlorine.

[BrewerGeorge]

What's the consensus on that Bru'n Water program vs using RA via Palmer's spreadsheet?  I read the critique of RA on Bru'n Water's page, and it seems that while that might be correct, that it's trying to account for the rare corner cases.  (Who's going to use all 150L crystal to get to 20 SRM?)  I have extremely difficult water, and I've had nothing but success with RA - including hitting pH on tests.  What's Bru'n Water going to do for me?
 
FWIW, here's my water:

 
Calcium (ppm) 87
Magnesium (ppm) 27
Alkalinity as CaCO3 330
Sulfate (ppm) 19
Chloride (ppm) 122
Sodium (ppm) 77
Water pH 7.2

[neddles]

Stick with what works for you. I know next to nothing about the RA spreadsheet, does it allow you to track the other dissolved ions in the water? IOW is it anything more than just a predictor of pH?