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#1 Big Nake

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 04:41 PM

I was down in Bloomington over the weekend visiting my daughter at IU. For dinner on Friday we went to a place called The Tap which was nice. She used to be anti-beer but she's had a little here and there. She ordered Lindeman's Framboise which was on tap and she's had it before. If I have tried it, it was a very long time ago. It's what I would like to make myself. All those times I said that the McCormick raspberry extract worked just fine... I was lying. So I started noodling with it. What if I made a low-IBU beer where the grist, hops and yeast were relatively irrelevant... maybe 4-5%, 20 IBUs with some color to it. A neutral yeast like 1056. Ferment, keg, get it cold and add the fruit assuming that the cold will knock out the yeast so it won't metabolize the sugars in the fruit.

The specifics: take frozen raspberries and put them in a pot/pan and heat while crushing with a potato smasher or something. Get it broken down and send it through a strainer so I just get the juice. I have heard that you don't want to blend it because you want to leave the seeds behind. Maybe get it to 170°, strain it and add it to the keg and stir it. I'm not delusional thinking I can make Lindeman's Framboise at home. But I'd like to make something similar. Clearly I would need to keep the beer cold to avoid secondary fermentation. Does this process look reasonable? How much fruit for maybe 4-4.5 gallons (smaller batch size to leave room for the juice)? Fresh berries or frozen? Anything else? Should I just use Oregon Puree and call it a day?

#2 BrewerGeorge

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 06:48 PM

I think you're underestimating the yeast.  I think you'll need to micro filter if you want any shot at not having a secondary ferment.



#3 Big Nake

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 06:52 PM

An ale yeast at 35° should be knocked out pretty well but I'm open to suggestions on that.

I could also gel the beer after it's cold, connect a cobra tap and pull the sludge from the bottom of the keg which should remove a very large percentage of the yeast. There will still be some but maybe between the cold and the lower numbers I can get it to work. There was also talk about something that could be added to the beer that would kill the yeast. I don't remember what it is or if there are any side-effects of using it but that's an option too.

#4 MyaCullen

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:52 PM

sorbate and SMB will knock out the yeast 



#5 Big Nake

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:27 PM

I have SMB as a part of the low-O2 thing. Are you saying to use both or use one or the other? If it's the latter, do we know how much SMB in 4-ish gallons of beer to kill the yeast?

#6 BrewerGeorge

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:40 PM

I don't remember exactly, but they're was some reason not to use sulfites and add sorbates in beer.

#7 Poptop

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 04:04 AM

I was going to suggest campden. Are Mic's suggestions the same as?

#8 positiveContact

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 04:14 AM

how about add in the raspberry juice at kegging time and just put some pressure in the head space to seal it up.  then let the yeast ferment the juice a little bit (natural carbonation!).  I don't see why fermenting the sugar in the juice would scrub out the other aspects of the juice that provide the raspberry flavor.



#9 Big Nake

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 06:00 AM

how about add in the raspberry juice at kegging time and just put some pressure in the head space to seal it up.  then let the yeast ferment the juice a little bit (natural carbonation!).  I don't see why fermenting the sugar in the juice would scrub out the other aspects of the juice that provide the raspberry flavor.

Anytime I tried this in the past the yeast would metabolize the sugars from the fruit and it would be this long and slow process that seemed like it would never stop. Eventually the beer was really dry from that secondary fermentation and it was not enjoyable. So I'm looking for a way to introduce the fruit flavors but not allow the yeast to process those sugars.

#10 HVB

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 06:05 AM

Nothing to add but seeing Ken want to make something like a Lambic makes my head want to explode.



#11 neddles

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 06:11 AM

Nothing to add but seeing Ken want to make something like a Lambic makes my head want to explode.

 

Was thinking this same thing.



#12 Big Nake

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 06:12 AM

Nothing to add but seeing Ken want to make something like a Lambic makes my head want to explode.

I know it's classified as a lambic but it has no real Belgian character to it that I could tell. My daughter and I agreed that the flavor was delicious. Also, it was listed on the beer sheet as 2.5% ABV... is that right or a misprint? Anyway, I want to make a beer where the raspberries shine like that... I don't necessarily want to make that beer. I know I've mentioned this many times but between real fruit, puree and extract I have attempted many, mant fruit beers but I could never get it right. I have worked my way around many issues in brewing (water, getting pale lagers just right, pH control, etc) and this one has not been solved yet.

#13 HVB

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 06:17 AM

I know it's classified as a lambic but it has no real Belgian character to it that I could tell. My daughter and I agreed that the flavor was delicious. Also, it was listed on the beer sheet as 2.5% ABV... is that right or a misprint? Anyway, I want to make a beer where the raspberries shine like that... I don't necessarily want to make that beer. I know I've mentioned this many times but between real fruit, puree and extract I have attempted many, mant fruit beers but I could never get it right. I have worked my way around many issues in brewing (water, getting pale lagers just right, pH control, etc) and this one has not been solved yet.

Here are the stats and yes it says 2.5% so that means it gets to about 1.033 from 1.050.  Style wise it is a backsweetened lambic :stabby:

 

ABV: 2.5% - OG: 1.050 - IBU: 12
Ingredients: Water, barley malt, wheat, raspberry juice, sugar, natural flavor from raspberries, hops, stevia, yeast.



#14 Big Nake

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 06:59 AM

Hmm, so it's final gravity is 1.033? Wow. My guess is that they do that so that residual sugars are left behind to mingle with the sourness that will some from the berries. If you have all that tartness with no sugars left behind then the beer is just not enjoyable to drink. So they must start the fermentation and then find a way to stop it prematurely (kill the yeast, filter the beer, etc) leaving those residual sugars behind and then add the fruit/juice to the beer. That's interesting. That said I'm not sure how I would go about it. I could see using a low-attenuating yeast but that's not going to be enough. Stevia? Really? I have some but damn I never envisioned using it in a beer. It sounds like the key is a balance of sweet and tart... just enough for everything to play well. You don't want it SWEET and maybe you don't mind TART but it can't be runaway TARTNESS or the balance is off. Thanks for the information Drez.

#15 denny

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 08:48 AM

I think you're underestimating the yeast.  I think you'll need to micro filter if you want any shot at not having a secondary ferment.

 

Yep



#16 Big Nake

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 10:06 AM

Okay so let me change the angle a little bit. What suggestions does everyone have for making an ale with fresh raspberries and getting it to come out balanced? There is an old thread HERE, yes it's on the GREENBOARD where he makes what he calls an "Impatient Lambic". What I want to know is how to get the beer balanced and not terribly dry. That link explains souring the wort which I'm not necessarily interested in although the sourness in Lindeman's Framboise is evident. Tartness would come from the berries and the link also mentions using lactose for sweetening... as much as THREE POUNDS in 5 gallons. I have no real experience with lactose so that would be interesting. If I used lactose then I wouldn't need to know how to kill the yeast because the lactose would balance the dryness I would get from the secondary fermentation.

#17 denny

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 10:17 AM

If you use raspberry extract you don't have to worry about refermentation.  AFAIK, that's what Lindemann's does to make their raspberry pop!  ;)



#18 Big Nake

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 10:23 AM

If you use raspberry extract you don't have to worry about refermentation.  AFAIK, that's what Lindemann's does to make their raspberry pop!  ;)

I know but I have never tasted a raspberry extract that tastes as good as real raspberries.

#19 denny

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 11:00 AM

I know but I have never tasted a raspberry extract that tastes as good as real raspberries.

 

Tried this one?  https://www.olivenat...ry-extract.html



#20 Big Nake

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 11:18 AM

Tried this one?  https://www.olivenat...ry-extract.html

Yes. I have that one and the blackberry version from Olive Nation. Good but not the same.


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