71 replies to this topic

[HVB]

LODO was to help with the fragile beers.  They felt that the oxygen is what was causing the beers a premature death.

[pkrone]

Sorry guys.   Didn't mean to hijack the thread...      I'm not a LoDo zealot but I will testify that my German beers have improved.

 

My problem is that I went to Germany last year.   The beer there was just so damn good.   I came home and my lagers I had on tap were just lacking compared to what I'd been drinking the 2 previous weeks.    That's what got me started.   I was initially completely resistant.   But I started using a little Brewtan-B and noticed a difference and just proceeded from there. 

 

Commercial breweries don't have to worry as much about HSA because of the way they start (de-oxygenated water),  the design of the breweries (closed systems, pumps, no splashing, reduced relative exposure to air because of size, etc).    Things that work in their favor to reduce HSA turn out to be a PITA for the regular homebrewer to improve upon.     Fortunately my system was relatively easy to add LoDo methods.    I will say that I hate my recently added SS CFC.   Just not as efficient as my good old copper one.    I might go back to adding BTB to the boil and using my copper CFC.   

[pkrone]

LODO was to help with the fragile beers.  They felt that the oxygen is what was causing the beers a premature death.

 

LODO certainly has given me an appreciation for the shelf life of certain beers.   I can appreciate flavor degradation in my own beers over time now.  LIghter, delicately-flavored beers just don't age well no matter how careful one is about oxygen ingress.    I always check for the bottling date when I'm buying beer.

[HVB]

LODO certainly has given me an appreciation for the shelf life of certain beers.   I can appreciate flavor degradation in my own beers over time now.  LIghter, delicately-flavored beers just don't age well no matter how careful one is about oxygen ingress.    I always check for the bottling date when I'm buying beer.

I had a helles that was 6-8 months old where I used Brewtan B and it tasted fresh as the day it was kegged to me.  Maybe I am a bad judge or my process is good to begin with.  I do agree 100% on checking dates, lots of old beer otu there.

[neddles]

a question I have is that if SMB at those high levels is so beneficial why don't the commercial breweries use it?

 

I didn't claim it was beneficial. Nor am I sure what constitutes a "high level". I would guess it is as Denny/pkrone suggested. The commercial breweries that seek to remove oxygen ingress do so with their brewing systems/technique and don't need to use it. 

 

I have not used SMB myself, in case that wasn't already clear.

Edited by neddles, 05 September 2017 - 11:11 AM.

[positiveContact]

I didn't claim it was beneficial. Nor am I sure what constitutes a "high level". I would guess it is as Denny/pkrone suggested. The commercial breweries that seek to remove oxygen ingress do so with their brewing systems/technique and don't need to use it. 

 

I have not used SMB myself, in case that wasn't already clear.

 

it was just a general question not specifically directed at you.  that makes sense.

 

the high level was mostly with respect to how much other "stuff" you are adding when you add SMB at the levels they suggest.  I can't remember now - was it the sodium levels that became really high?

Edited by pickle_rick, 05 September 2017 - 11:33 AM.

[neddles]

it was just a general question not specifically directed at you.  that makes sense.

 

the high level was mostly with respect to how much other "stuff" you are adding when you add SMB at the levels they suggest.  I can't remember now - was it the sodium levels that became really high?

 

IIRC starting from RO it wasn't adding all that much sodium. Also from what I understand there has been continued progress to reduce the amount of SMB used in the process and that depending on what other adjustments you have made to your system you can get away with quite low or maybe even no SMB. I am sincerely not the expert on this tho.

[positiveContact]

IIRC starting from RO it wasn't adding all that much sodium. Also from what I understand there has been continued progress to reduce the amount of SMB used in the process and that depending on what other adjustments you have made to your system you can get away with quite low or maybe even no SMB. I am sincerely not the expert on this tho.

 

I might actually do some of their "stuff" already.  I put a campden tablet in my water for chloramines but maybe not enough to help with O2.  I already drain my strike water into my mash tun via tubing.  I do pour in sparge water though.  I'm thinking brewtan-b does enough for me after the fact so the O2 can't hurt me much pre-fermentation.

[denny]

IIRC starting from RO it wasn't adding all that much sodium. Also from what I understand there has been continued progress to reduce the amount of SMB used in the process and that depending on what other adjustments you have made to your system you can get away with quite low or maybe even no SMB. I am sincerely not the expert on this tho.

 

Yep...if you buy a $14K brewing system like Bryan did!

[HVB]

Yep...if you buy a $14K brewing system like Bryan did!

What system did he buy for 14k? 

[denny]

What system did he buy for 14k? 

 

I don't know who the manufacturer is.  He's talked about it on the AHA forum and said he doesn't use SMB any more because of it.

[Big Nake]

I remember him taking pics of his brewery and there seemed to be A LOT of equipment that I had never seen nor did I know what it was. There were screens and keypads and stainless equipment everywhere. I don't know if that was his old system or this new system. We have already determined that it's a fine line between hobby and obsession so the $14k system would just HAVE to push that over to obsession, IMO.

[HVB]

I remember him taking pics of his brewery and there seemed to be A LOT of equipment that I had never seen nor did I know what it was. There were screens and keypads and stainless equipment everywhere. I don't know if that was his old system or this new system. We have already determined that it's a fine line between hobby and obsession so the $14k system would just HAVE to push that over to obsession, IMO.

I followed his fb feed for a while and that is what I seen as well. I like toys and equipment but have my limits.

[Big Nake]

I followed his fb feed for a while and that is what I seen as well. I like toys and equipment but have my limits.

There are 4- and 5-hour YT videos of his brewery in progress. For MUCH of the video it looks like nothing is happening. I'm not sure who would sit and watch that. I'll say it again, I have had some bad contact with him but I'm always looking to gain any tip, shortcut, pearl of wisdom, etc. when it comes to beer. If someone passes on a piece of very good information, I'll take it whether I like them or not. Example: There's this buttnut named Drez who mentioned something about 30-minute boils. Everyone thought he was a complete doofus but I listened to what he said and sure enough he was right.

[positiveContact]

I don't know who the manufacturer is.  He's talked about it on the AHA forum and said he doesn't use SMB any more because of it.

 

so no idea what this equipment is?  does he have something to remove O2 his water prior to mashing and then keep the environment O2 free afterwards?

 

and my follow on question would be - what do the big breweries do that accomplishes this?

[pkrone]

Two methods to remove oxygen I've used are pre-boiling for 10 min and rapidly chill to strike temp and yeast de-oxygenation.   The yeast method involves adding some baker's yeast and sugar to the strike water and let it sit for 2 hrs then heat to strike temp.   The latter takes a little longer and for me, a little more clean up due to the design of my system.

 

I'm not sure what method the macros use.   I have a friend that spent his career as a master brewer w/ AB and he said they started w/ de-oxygenated water.  He also said they used 12 different yeast strains in their beer.   Interesting. 

[neddles]

and my follow on question would be - what do the big breweries do that accomplishes this?

 

I believe Sierra Nevada has some sort of column strippers that remove the O2 from the brewing water prior to mashing in. They also wet mill under N2 gas. There are probably other breweries that do the same.

[positiveContact]

Two methods to remove oxygen I've used are pre-boiling for 10 min and rapidly chill to strike temp

 

how does that work?  the little reading I've done seems to imply that boiling doesn't accomplish a lot in the way of removing O2.  is that wrong?

[neddles]

how does that work?  the little reading I've done seems to imply that boiling doesn't accomplish a lot in the way of removing O2.  is that wrong?

 

As far as I know it is wrong. My understanding is that O2 solubility in water @212F is essentially zero. Cooling quickly and mashing in will reduce the amount of time O2 has to dissolve before you mash in.

[Big Nake]

I think I would be more inclined to look further at this if A) I was really unhappy with my beers or found something in my beers that I could not fix or get right and 2) if there was a way to attack the low-O2 thing and be able to make progress incrementally instead of the "all-or-nothing" description we have heard.