71 replies to this topic

[BrewerGeorge]

So I'm about halfway through the Brewtan thread, and I have questions.

What's happened with oxygen exposure? Last I heard people were starting to say HSA was overblown. But I'm getting the impression from the Brewtan thread that oxygen is now the enemy.

Am I not supposed to oxygenate before pitching now?

[HVB]

I gave up oxygen before pitching but not from fear of oxygenation but after I realized it was an unnecessary step for me when pitching active starters. Oxygen pre pitch is still fine to do if you feel you need it.

[denny]

So I'm about halfway through the Brewtan thread, and I have questions.

What's happened with oxygen exposure? Last I heard people were starting to say HSA was overblown. But I'm getting the impression from the Brewtan thread that oxygen is now the enemy.

Am I not supposed to oxygenate before pitching now?

 

HSA and post hot side oxidation are different animals, George.  Although I'm pretty sure I've experienced HSA, I believe it's a minor issue.  Post hot side aeration is a bigger problem.  I've stopped doing any aeration/oxygenation when I pitch.  Not because I'm afraid of the effect on the beer, but because I'm lazy.  I'd rather pitch a large amount of healthy yeast, in which case oxygenation isn't necessary.  Brewtan B deals with post hot side aeration, which is not HSA.

[Big Nake]

I still feel like oxygenating helps. My only evidence is that I used to make normal starters and eventually I started adding some pure O2 to the starters and noticed that they seemed to start quicker and that was not just on super-fresh yeast but also on older packs of Wyeast or White Labs. I generally pitch yeast that was JUST harvested so it should be ready to go but I still add pure O2 from a canister (through a stone) to every batch I make. I suppose I could do a batch with no O2 and see how it comes out and then ditch the O2 altogether if the beer comes out okay.

[denny]

I still feel like oxygenating helps. My only evidence is that I used to make normal starters and eventually I started adding some pure O2 to the starters and noticed that they seemed to start quicker and that was not just on super-fresh yeast but also on older packs of Wyeast or White Labs. I generally pitch yeast that was JUST harvested so it should be ready to go but I still add pure O2 from a canister (through a stone) to every batch I make. I suppose I could do a batch with no O2 and see how it comes out and then ditch the O2 altogether if the beer comes out okay.

 

If it makes you feel better, then do it.  I'm not hung up on fast starts.  They don't seem to make better beer than slower ones.  And if you pitch enough healthy yeast, you'll get a fast start even without aeration.  I mean, the purpose of aeration is to help yeast grow and if you pitch enough yeast in the first place that need is greatly reduced, to the point that the yeast will naturally take care of it themselves.

[Big Nake]

If it makes you feel better, then do it.  I'm not hung up on fast starts.  They don't seem to make better beer than slower ones.  And if you pitch enough healthy yeast, you'll get a fast start even without aeration.  I mean, the purpose of aeration is to help yeast grow and if you pitch enough yeast in the first place that need is greatly reduced, to the point that the yeast will naturally take care of it themselves.

Understood. Sometimes I pitch Wyeast ale yeast from a swollen pack without a starter so I feel like O2 helps there. Sometimes I have a year-old pack of yeast in the fridge and I'll make a starter and hit it with O2 and get it to come to life pretty quickly and I feel like that starter may not get that active without the O2 but of course I have no evidence of that. We have come across a lot of new ideas in the last couple of years. The lady that runs a LHBS near me always tells me when I buy pilsner malt "Make sure you boil for 90 minutes with this so you don't run across DMS!". I laugh and say "Not only do I not do a 90 but now I don't even do a 60!" and she's always bugged out every time I mention one of these things. I mentioned brewtan as well and she had no clue.

[pkrone]

I believe HSA is quite real and a true flavor detriment to delicate malt-forward beers like most German lagers.     I've done side-by-side batches using my old technique and my recently added LoDo techniques and the flavor difference was incredibly obvious.    The biggest hurdle with avoiding HSA is it seems to be an all or nothing phenomenon.   Meaning  you have to go all in.   You can't just incorporate a few smaller techniques and  expect to experience any big flavor difference.

 

I've gone all in because German lagers and weissbier are about all I brew.     If all I did were hop-forward beers, I probably wouldn't bother with it.  

 

Brew the way you like.   It's all good.  

 

Just my 2 cents...

[BrewerGeorge]

So what are these more oxygen processes?

[Big Nake]

So what are these more oxygen processes?

If you're asking about low-to-no-oxygen brewing, there is a thread HERE and a link in the first 10 posts to the "white paper" on low-O2 brewing. I did start looking at some of the processes there but realized a few things: My ghetto setup would require a big overhaul, you MUST go all-in as mentioned and even when you do everything right the results can be fleeting. The truth is that I'm happy with my beers, especially my German-inspired beers so I did not go ALL-IN.

[pkrone]

This site has a lot of good info and a very helpful forum.   www.lowoxygenbrewing.com  

[neddles]

This site has a lot of good info and a very helpful forum. www.lowoxygenbrewing.com

Yep. Thats where I would start.

[positiveContact]

I think I'd make sure there was a problem I was trying to fix before going to great lengths.  brewtan-b is so easy to use and has an effect I like so I use it.

[Big Nake]

A question: Who here has taken steps to go low-oxygen other than pkrone? You guys know that I was open-minded about the concept and that I actually took some steps in the low-O2 direction: I picked up a stainless chiller instead of copper, I bought SMB and high temp tubing (so I could rack strike water instead of pouring it), I created a connection for my MT so that when I recirc, the wort goes into tubing and lands softly in a container instead of just pouring out. I started conditioning my malt. I bought a spunding valve. There seems to be a "trifecta" of things to add and I assume that SMB is one but I'm not sure of the other two. Eventually I got to the point where I realized that converting my current system to low-O2 would be a big project and I'm not even sure that I have a problem to correct (I know... anyone who does not brew low-O2 is making inferior beer compared to anyone brewing low-O2). So I didn't go any further. The boiling of the strike water and then letting it cool to strike water temps would add a lot of extra time and there are other issues as well because my system is very basic. So who else here has tried it and heard the angels sing?

EDIT: Also, it seems like if there were a scale from 1 to 10 (1 is low-O2 and 10 is heavy-O2) that you can't just go from 10 to 5. You have to go from 10 to 1 or just forget it. Is that right? I've heard that a number of times and it's another thing that makes me back away from it. Also, right after the Low-O2 thing hit, the brewtan thing hit and I have been using it. I know the low-O2 crowd dismisses brewtan and it appears that the jury is still out on whether it contributes to better-tasting beer.

[HVB]

A question: Who here has taken steps to go low-oxygen other than pkrone?

Not I.  I have read the paper and spent time on both forums reading.  In the end I am happy where my beers are and the steps that it would require seem to be going in an opposite direction from my brewing goals. 

 

This weekend I put on a beer that is a 11 months old, had Brewtan, and it tasted great.  I just see no reason now to make huge changes in my process like that.  I also need more evidence that it is worth the change. 

[neddles]

I have no doubt that if you implement the low O2 process changes you will notice a difference in your beer. This difference seems to be universally preferred by those who implement the changes but that can be a loaded topic. I have read a bit about doing it (and may someday) but until I start brewing more often, especially lagers, I am reluctant to go down that road. I have implemented some of the smaller changes and to me they seem worthwhile, even if the benefit is smaller. 

[positiveContact]

I have no doubt that if you implement the low O2 process changes you will notice a difference in your beer. This difference seems to be universally preferred by those who implement the changes but that can be a loaded topic. I have read a bit about doing it (and may someday) but until I start brewing more often, especially lagers, I am reluctant to go down that road. I have implemented some of the smaller changes and to me they seem worthwhile, even if the benefit is smaller. 

 

a question I have is that if SMB at those high levels is so beneficial why don't the commercial breweries use it?

Edited by pickle_rick, 05 September 2017 - 09:31 AM.

[HVB]

a question I have is that if SMB at those high levels is so beneficial why don't the commercial breweries use it?

a question for you question that I have no idea on the answer.  Are commercial breweries ( big ones not the start up) doing something to their water treatment already to avoid the SMB?

[denny]

a question I have is that if SMB at those high levels is so beneficial why don't the commercial breweries use it?

 

That has been my question since the technique was first introduced.  The answer "they" give is that it's a shortcut for homebrewers and commercial brewers have systems designed to eliminate O2.  The main lodo guy now uses a $14K brewing system and doesn't use SMB.

a question for you question that I have no idea on the answer.  Are commercial breweries ( big ones not the start up) doing something to their water treatment already to avoid the SMB?

 

It's not usually water treatment, it's the equipment some of them use.  Although Sierra Nevada, and I assume some others, deoxygenate the water they use.

[Big Nake]

So many thoughts about this.

On one hand I don't like the idea of rebuilding my system but I always like the idea of making better beer. I do make a lot of German lagers so it could very well apply to me and be something that would really have a big impact. OTOH, I do feel very good about the beer I make including the German-style lagers. Also, I have to say that I don't go out and sample commercially made German-style lagers and say that they're from a completely different planet than my beers. There are times when I try a commercial lager and admit that it's outstanding. Other times they're just "good". Many times I try my own German lagers and say that they're outstanding. So the push to try this is not really that strong. Maybe I need to hook up with a low-O2 brewing local and sample their beer to see what I'm missing.

[BrewerGeorge]

So many thoughts about this.

On one hand I don't like the idea of rebuilding my system but I always like the idea of making better beer. I do make a lot of German lagers so it could very well apply to me and be something that would really have a big impact. OTOH, I do feel very good about the beer I make including the German-style lagers. Also, I have to say that I don't go out and sample commercially made German-style lagers and say that they're from a completely different planet than my beers. There are times when I try a commercial lager and admit that it's outstanding. Other times they're just "good". Many times I try my own German lagers and say that they're outstanding. So the push to try this is not really that strong. Maybe I need to hook up with a low-O2 brewing local and sample their beer to see what I'm missing.

I've been reading  a lot of stuff recently, so forgive me if I'm referencing something you said a year ago - or if it wasn't even you!  But you (I think) said something about the LODO process producing these fragile beers, and that even if they ARE somehow better why go through all that trouble to make something that doesn't survive to the end of a pint?  If brewtan is in the cards for producing some of the same experiences, but conversely making the beer more stable and robust at the same time, it's sounding like an easy choice to me.