57 replies to this topic

[HVB]

I am throwing together a Patersbier recipe for a quick turn around and to get a pH of around 5.29 I will need half a pound of acid malt and 4ML of 88% lactic.  At what point does the acid used impact the taste?

 

[Bklmt2000]

Not sure at what point you'd perceive the lactic, since everyone is different as far as taste perceptions.

 

What size batch are we looking at?

[Big Nake]

I have heard this a few times but I have no idea if it's correct... 1ml of 88% lactic acid per gallon of water used is where you start to get to the taste/flavor threshold. As a reference, on many of my beers I have to add 4ml of acid to 5 gallons of strike water to hit my mash pH. Then I have to add another 2ml to 3 gallons of sparge water. So 6ml (ish) in 8 (ish) gallons of water and I do not hit the threshold. With the 30m boils, I cut down my sparge water to 2½ gallons.

[HVB]

Not sure at what point you'd perceive the lactic, since everyone is different as far as taste perceptions.

 

What size batch are we looking at?

6.75 pre boil 6 post boil.

 

 

I have heard this a few times but I have no idea if it's correct... 1ml of 88% lactic acid per gallon of water used is where you start to get to the taste/flavor threshold. As a reference, on many of my beers I have to add 4ml of acid to 5 gallons of strike water to hit my mash pH. Then I have to add another 2ml to 3 gallons of sparge water. So 6ml (ish) in 8 (ish) gallons of water and I do not hit the threshold. With the 30m boils, I cut down my sparge water to 2½ gallons.

I have not seen that rule of thumb before but that is helpful.

[positiveContact]

I have not seen that rule of thumb before but that is helpful.

 

I think I'd see if 6ml of lactic acid could do the same pH lowering job and if yes your combo of acid malt and lactic is probably fine.

[Bklmt2000]

I think I'd see if 6ml of lactic acid could do the same pH lowering job and if yes your combo of acid malt and lactic is probably fine.

 

Agreed. 

[HVB]

I think I'd see if 6ml of lactic acid could do the same pH lowering job and if yes your combo of acid malt and lactic is probably fine.

6ml of Lactic gets me to 5.42

[Big Nake]

You could run a quick and relatively easy test... get 1 gallon of water and add 1ml of lactic acid. Stir and taste. Can you detect anything? My take on all of this is that when you have a low kettle pH and the beer ends up at a slightly lower finished pH, you get a crisp, refreshing beer that has that *SNAP* to it but you're not entering the SOUR neighborhood... just the lower-pH neighborhood. All that said, my guess is that if someone went too far and added more acid to the beer than is advised, the flavor component of the acid might be really unpleasant.

[HVB]

You could run a quick and relatively easy test... get 1 gallon of water and add 1ml of lactic acid. Stir and taste. Can you detect anything? My take on all of this is that when you have a low kettle pH and the beer ends up at a slightly lower finished pH, you get a crisp, refreshing beer that has that *SNAP* to it but you're not entering the SOUR neighborhood... just the lower-pH neighborhood. All that said, my guess is that if someone went too far and added more acid to the beer than is advised, the flavor component of the acid might be really unpleasant.

Yes, I can try that test.  For the Patersbier I was thinking I would want that final pH to give me that nice "snap".

[Bklmt2000]

Yes, I can try that test.  For the Patersbier I was thinking I would want that final pH to give me that nice "snap".

 

Agreed, a Patersbier seems (at least to my palate) tastier with that "snap"/crispness.

 

Something desirable in a lot of pale beers IMO, especially heading into the heat of summer.

[HVB]

Agreed, a Patersbier seems (at least to my palate) tastier with that "snap"/crispness.

 

Something desirable in a lot of pale beers IMO, especially heading into the heat of summer.

My thought precisely!

[Bklmt2000]

My thought precisely!

 

Neighbor. 

[Big Nake]

Agreed, a Patersbier seems (at least to my palate) tastier with that "snap"/crispness.
 
Something desirable in a lot of pale beers IMO, especially heading into the heat of summer.

Right. This is one of those fine-tuning things that you pick up later as a more experienced brewer. To be able to achieve and detect the slight difference in crispness and that "snappiness" that really makes the beer more refreshing. Of course, all the other stuff (water, fresh ingredients) have to be there too but I really like that character.

[positiveContact]

have you already maxed out what you are willing to do with gypsum and CaCl?

[HVB]

have you already maxed out what you are willing to do with gypsum and CaCl?

I have not added any to be honest.  I did not see this beer as one with a big gypsum amount  but I may be wrong here.

[Bklmt2000]

My 2 cents: a Patersbier-ish type of beer doesn't need alot of sulfate to be crisp/snappy.

 

Perhaps a small sulfate addition, along the lines of what you'd add for a pilsner, might be enough to the crisp/snappy character without the sulfate character taking over.

 

But more sulfate than that might take the beer in a different direction than originally intended.

[Big Nake]

Plus... I feel like the pH-lowering power of things like CaCl and CaSO4 are low. They don't really lower pH by that much when compared to acid. I also agree about the beer style and minerals... more CaCl, less CaSO4. This is not a style I'm very familiar with but it seems like sulfate should be low.

[positiveContact]

I have not added any to be honest.  I did not see this beer as one with a big gypsum amount  but I may be wrong here.

 

right but maybe just a small amount of each could give you that small amount of pH lowering you need so as not to have to use quite as much lactic acid.

[pkrone]

I can't answer your original question as I've never used that much lactic acid/sauer malt at once.     Your starting water must be fairly alkaline to need that much.     My home water is worthless for brewing-  pH 8.8, total alkalinity 365 (!).    So I use RO water.    7.5 gal w/ 6 gr CaCl and then 2 oz sauer malt in the mash get my mash pH at 5.25 consistently.      That patersbier is some good stuff too.   

[HVB]

I can't answer your original question as I've never used that much lactic acid/sauer malt at once.     Your starting water must be fairly alkaline to need that much.     My home water is worthless for brewing-  pH 8.8, total alkalinity 365 (!).    So I use RO water.    7.5 gal w/ 6 gr CaCl and then 2 oz sauer malt in the mash get my mash pH at 5.25 consistently.      That patersbier is some good stuff too.   

It is not.  pH  = 7.1 Total Alkalinity 78

 

I did find one issue, I had the wrong amount of water on my Bru'n Water sheet.  Fixing that I now have.

 

8.5# Pils

.5# Acid Malt

1.5g Gypsum

3ML 88% Lactic

 

that gives me a pH of 5.32

 

When I enter all the same information in Brewer's Friend I get a pH of 5.05 and if I take out the lactic I get 5.28.  I am not sure what to believe at this point.  I know I have had some reading not agree with Bru'n Water and I reached out the Martin but never got a response.  To me these are vastly different values.