23 replies to this topic

[Thirsty]

So I am sipping on a Zywiec Baltic porter, and I think there is a definite note of some carmelized sugars. Now it is probably coming from some melanoidins and extractions from a good decoction, but I was wondering about adding some more maillard flavors to a baltic porter I will do in a few batches.I was thinking of running off just a gallon or so, Turning on the burner and boiling that down by half, then continuing the normal runoff from there. Does anyone do this? I am wondering if it will be overpowering, or not even noticable? Maybe even adding an organic brown sugar to it while boiling? Thoughts?

[cavman]

So I am sipping on a Zywiec Baltic porter, and I think there is a definite note of some carmelized sugars. Now it is probably coming from some melanoidins and extractions from a good decoction, but I was wondering about adding some more maillard flavors to a baltic porter I will do in a few batches.I was thinking of running off just a gallon or so, Turning on the burner and boiling that down by half, then continuing the normal runoff from there. Does anyone do this? I am wondering if it will be overpowering, or not even noticable? Maybe even adding an organic brown sugar to it while boiling? Thoughts?

I recently boiled down the first 1.5 gallons of an English Dark Mild/Stout in half before adding back to the full boil. It is in secondary now but the gravity sample was promising. I say go ahead as that's part of being a hombrewer we get to try new things.

[consumptionjunction]

I think there is a definite note of some carmelized sugars. Now it is probably coming from some melanoidins and extractions from a good decoction

Melanoidins and caramelized sugars are not the same thing. Caramelized sugars come from the concentration and charring of sugars inside the boil kettle through heating, whereas melanoidins are produced through a chemical reaction between sugars and amino acids also with the application of heat. I believe that with a higher pH the Maillard reactions occur faster, and you get a more melanoidin development. Caramelization provides more intense sweetness whereas melanoidins make for a more complex maltiness.Because melanoidin development and carmelization is also affected by concentration, you will likely get some more by boiling your initial run-off. I've heard stories of people getting the extract twang by boiling high gravity barley wines, but you will not likely see this in your final beer, as you're adding more wort to the boil kettle.But this is based on theory and not experience, so take it for what it's worth. https://braukaiser.com/ and the wiki page for caramelization has a lot of info on melanoidins and caramelization that may help.

[ChefLamont]

IIRC PatrickC did this with his Scotch Ale with great success. His grain bill was just pale malt, but he had great caramel notes and complexity from the boil-down. Of course that is pretty much the far end of the maltiness spectrum, but it was at least a good proof of concept.

[Deerslyr]

IIRC PatrickC did this with his Scotch Ale with great success. His grain bill was just pale malt, but he had great caramel notes and complexity from the boil-down. Of course that is pretty much the far end of the maltiness spectrum, but it was at least a good proof of concept.

I have a batch of Scotch Ale in primary right now where we did something similar. We took 3 gallons of first runnings and boiled it down to just less than half the original volume. We added that to the main boil at the end to produce 10 gallons with an OG of 1.072. It's going to be a bit, but I'm anxious to have this one.

[ChefLamont]

.....It's going to be a bit, but I'm anxious to have this one.

A bit what?That is quite a boil down.

[Deerslyr]

A bit what?That is quite a boil down.

"bit" as in time... I don't think this one will be ready for a few months. Yeah, it was an aggressive boil down, but we hit our targets. Let me tell you, that pot that had the lower volume and was working towards carmelization looked fantastic.

[Genesee Ted]

I love this technique. It really does work well. It simulates and sometimes beats decoction for "maltiness". I have used this several times and discovered it for practical rather than flavor enhancement reasons. Done with consistency, one can certainly add an inimitable quality to their own wort.

[Patrick C.]

IIRC PatrickC did this with his Scotch Ale with great success. His grain bill was just pale malt, but he had great caramel notes and complexity from the boil-down. Of course that is pretty much the far end of the maltiness spectrum, but it was at least a good proof of concept.

thanks for the compliments on my beer- I need to make another batch of that one, though it's probably too late to age it properly for this winter. The recipe (including carmelizing the first runnings) was from Skotrat's Traquair House Ale clone. It's basically pale malt with 1% roasted barley to an OG of 1.085, then you take out a gallon of first runnings and boil it down to syrup. Bitter to about 30 IBU. Skot's recipe is here- https://www.skotrat....recipes/10.html

[consumptionjunction]

I was just listening to the 02-25-07 "Bitter Sweet" Sunday Session, from the Brewing Network, and John Palmer mentioned that we're not actually getting caramelization in the boiling kettle, because caramelization (at least of maltose) occurs at high temperatures, specifically above 300F. Any thoughts?

[denny]

I was just listening to the 02-25-07 "Bitter Sweet" Sunday Session, from the Brewing Network, and John Palmer mentioned that we're not actually getting caramelization in the boiling kettle, because caramelization (at least of maltose) occurs at high temperatures, specifically above 300F. Any thoughts?

It's actually 360F and it takes the presence of O2 to occur. So, in our normal kettles, no, we aren't getting caramelization. I've been trying to get this across for years and it seems like people are just starting to get it.And BTW, melanoidins are a color, not a flavor, as far as I can find out.

[consumptionjunction]

And BTW, melanoidins are a color, not a flavor, as far as I can find out.

Interesting. So would you say that the changes in flavor between regular bread and toast are due to caramelization reactions or charring, or just that the melanoidin contributions in beer are much less pronounced than on a piece of bread?

[consumptionjunction]

So, in our normal kettles, no, we aren't getting caramelization.

I was thinking that we may get some caramelization in the kettle right where the flame meets the metal, where it's probably quite hot. (I'm not sure about the O2, though.) Long boils = lots of contact time at this hotter part of the kettle, and possibly a lot of diffusion of caramelized sugars.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

It's actually 360F and it takes the presence of O2 to occur. So, in our normal kettles, no, we aren't getting caramelization. I've been trying to get this across for years and it seems like people are just starting to get it.And BTW, melanoidins are a color, not a flavor, as far as I can find out.

so this makes me wonder - what is it about partial boil extract batches people are so worried about? This was a common reason why you would want to do full boils.

[denny]

Interesting. So would you say that the changes in flavor between regular bread and toast are due to caramelization reactions or charring, or just that the melanoidin contributions in beer are much less pronounced than on a piece of bread?

I'd say that in toast, it's due to caramelization.

[denny]

I was thinking that we may get some caramelization in the kettle right where the flame meets the metal, where it's probably quite hot. (I'm not sure about the O2, though.) Long boils = lots of contact time at this hotter part of the kettle, and possibly a lot of diffusion of caramelized sugars.

You won't though, since that area is under liquid. Not only is there no O2 access, but I really don't think it gets hot enough.

[denny]

This is a very interesting concept to me. I have been looking for a way to get a different flavor and add some decoction-like maltiness to some of my bigger lagers. This maybe the answer,too bad I'm just thinking about this now.

A boildown will add sweetness, but I've never detected extra maltiness from it.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Denny: can you explain the reasoning behind boiling small amounts of runoff and adding them into the main boil after some boil down? I thought it caused carmelization but if not - what does it do?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Denny: can you explain the reasoning behind boiling small amounts of runoff and adding them into the main boil after some boil down? I thought it caused carmelization but if not - what does it do?

I should have said - doing this separate boil versus just doing an extended boil of the whole wort.