26 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I have a contact at one of my customers in Dallas who is a homebrewer. I have spoken with him a number of times about brewing but not in much detail. I was emailing with him yesterday and in one of the emails he said, "ALSO: I made my first lager last weekend. A pilsner. I'll let you know how it comes out". I said, "Oh wow, that is NOT an easy style to make! Do you know what's in your water and were you checking pH, etc?" and he replied, "Uh oh. Now I'm scared". I told him not to be scared and he said he wanted to go through some of those things with me. So how likely is someone to make a first lager and first pilsner, not know about their water or pH and make a good beer? It seems like it all comes down to water, the right balance and low bicarb so that his pH would naturally fall into place. Does it seem likely that someone could "Mr. Magoo" their way through a style like that and come out unscathed? BTW, this is not a "new" brewer but he apparently sticks to ales.

[Steve Urquell]

Just throw some S05 in it and put it in the closet...

 

Do you know if he has temp control?

[HVB]

Just throw some S05 in it and put it in the closet...

 

Do you know if he has temp control?

Temp what?

[Big Nake]

I brought up water and pH so I did not want to go to temp control. I think I just assumed but at some point the conversation will come back up and I will make sure that's on the list too. I don't even know which yeast he used, whether he made a starter, etc. I'm going to guess dry something (M84, S-189, S-23, etc).

[denny]

I have won ribbons for pils made before I knew or did anything about water.  I did have temp control, although it was a bucket of water in the garage in winter.  So, depending on what his water is like, he stands a pretty good chance of making a decent beer.

[Poptop]

I admire his blind ambition. I made many batches before thinking about my water and all was well received by my audience. Of the 4 or so batches I've tossed (out of 83 to date), it was because of my own critique. Only the super trained palates will be able to really judge his batch and if he doesn't have anyone like that around, his beer will likely please the crowd.

[pkrone]

I think if you made ribbon-winning beer without knowing anything about water, you have a good brewing process and are lucky to live in an area with naturally favorable water.      

[denny]

I think if you made ribbon-winning beer without knowing anything about water, you have a good brewing process and are lucky to live in an area with naturally favorable water.      

 

Especially the latter.

[Big Nake]

Especially the latter.

Right. I assume there are people who make pale ales and have water that is conducive o making pale ales so the brewer just assumes all is good. If you had soft water with lower mineral content, low bicarb, etc., I think you could blindly make a pale lager and win... and people would say, "Tough style to make" and they would say "if you say so!". My hope is that his pils comes out nicely and then I can tell him what other people may have to go through based on their water. Cheers kids.

[Poptop]

Water is an intimidating ingredient imho. I dared not look too hard in my beginning, only dipping my toe with acid additions after many batches. Now that I'm a little more experienced, I get it about water. However I'm just starting to tinker with the wet stuff All in time with each brewer and their comfort level.

[denny]

There's a guy who used to win BOS at every comp around here with some kind of lager or other.  One day I finally net him and asked him to join our club.  At the first meeting he came to, everybody jumped on him with questions about how he made some of the best lagers any of us (including some long time lager brewers) had ever tasted.  Turns out he used his tap water, not even dechlorinating, and fermented them at room temp.  Sometimes it feels like there is no justice in the world..

Water is an intimidating ingredient imho. I dared not look too hard in my beginning, only dipping my toe with acid additions after many batches. Now that I'm a little more experienced, I get it about water. However I'm just starting to tinker with the wet stuff All in time with each brewer and their comfort level.

 

For the first maybe 12 years I brewed I did like the old timers did...I brewed what fit my water.

[Steve Urquell]

Right. I assume there are people who make pale ales and have water that is conducive o making pale ales so the brewer just assumes all is good. If you had soft water with lower mineral content, low bicarb, etc., I think you could blindly make a pale lager and win... and people would say, "Tough style to make" and they would say "if you say so!". My hope is that his pils comes out nicely and then I can tell him what other people may have to go through based on their water. Cheers kids.

Yep. I remember several years ago when you were just starting to learn water and chasing flavor issues with lighter colored beers. I tried to say that you needed to give up the pH strips and get a meter b/c your water composition did not add up to the pH the strips were indicating. Experienced brewers on here discounted the need for a meter. I just had to walk away for awhile as my comments were not well recieved and let you work thru it.

Even being an experienced brewer doesn't necessarily you make you capable of making a great light colored beer if your water is high in bicarb and/or chloramine which isn't dealt with.

[HVB]

Even being an experienced brewer doesn't necessarily you make you capable of making a great light colored beer if your water is high in bicarb and/or chloramine which isn't dealt with.

 

Just wondering, what do you define high for bicarb?

[pkrone]

Just wondering, what do you define high for bicarb?

 

Well, for my water it's a total alkalinity of almost 400.       Perfect if I want to only brew beers with roasted barley or other burnt grains.        I'm still embarrassed about how long it took me to figure that out... 

[Big Nake]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that some brewers start using things without knowing what they're for or what is already in their water. You can't just add gypsum because someone else added gypsum. I know that sounds silly and condescending to you guys but many people have emailed me about things like this and said that they added x amount of lactic acid or gypsum or calcium chloride and they have absolutely no idea why. Again, I do not pretend to be an expert but once you see how everything fits together and ways to adjust based on what you have, it makes much more sense. I had a guy add 5g of gypsum to every beer. He told me that his beers were REALLY dry and lacked maltiness. I asked him about his water and he had no clue. I said, "Then why are you adding gypsum?" and he said, "Because a bunch of people told me to!". He got his water checked and his sulfate was already 4x higher than his chloride. No wonder his beers lacked maltiness.

[djinkc]

I don't think Drew does much with his Dallas water.

[Steve Urquell]

Just wondering, what do you define high for bicarb?

Enough to drive the pH into a range that would cause astringency. Variable depending on grist.

Edited by Steve Urquell, 24 May 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[Big Nake]

Just wondering, what do you define high for bicarb?

Enough to drive the pH into a range that would cause astringency. Variable depending on grist.

That's tough. I might say that "high bicarb" is so high that you couldn't use lactic acid alone to neutralize it. If your bicarb was that high then distilled water might come into play. I like to say that my bicarb is high because it's 138ppm and all of my other numbers are less than 35. But I'm reminded that many people have bicarb in the 200, 300, 400ppm range and that's a different ballgame.

[HVB]

I don't think Drew does much with his Dallas water.

That was my one big take away from "Can you brew it", it seemed like most breweries didn't do a whole lot in the form of water adjustments. I am sure some do but most seemed to just "add some gypsum."

That's tough. I might say that "high bicarb" is so high that you couldn't use lactic acid alone to neutralize it. If your bicarb was that high then distilled water might come into play. I like to say that my bicarb is high because it's 138ppm and all of my other numbers are less than 35. But I'm reminded that many people have bicarb in the 200, 300, 400ppm range and that's a different ballgame.

I think mine is 68. I have not felt I have any issues but I was just trying to get a ballpark. My new lager ventures may have me needed some RO at some point.

[djinkc]

That was my one big take away from "Can you brew it", it seemed like most breweries didn't do a whole lot in the form of water adjustments. I am sure some do but most seemed to just "add some gypsum."

I think mine is 68. I have not felt I have any issues but I was just trying to get a ballpark. My new lager ventures may have me needed some RO at some point.

 

We have talked about it a little bit.  I don't think he saw the need but then I have no idea what Dallas city water is like.  When he brewed at Schlafly and the failed Mattingly Bros he swore STL water was great because AB got what the wanted back then.  My recollection of that conversation is a bit foggy though.............