23 replies to this topic

[shaggaroo]

I used a bag that I got from brewinabag.com on my last mash and was impressed with the initial runoff... never saw wort that clear come out of my mash tun. BUT after I sparged, it stirred everything up and I got cloudy wort.

 

So my question is for all of the BIABaggers or no-sparge guys: Is it as simple as mashing with my full volume? or do I mash with less than full then just add water to the kettle to make up the volume? Does efficiency take a big hit?

 

Learn me, oh wise ones.

[positiveContact]

I used a bag that I got from brewinabag.com on my last mash and was impressed with the initial runoff... never saw wort that clear come out of my mash tun. BUT after I sparged, it stirred everything up and I got cloudy wort.

 

So my question is for all of the BIABaggers or no-sparge guys: Is it as simple as mashing with my full volume? or do I mash with less than full then just add water to the kettle to make up the volume? Does efficiency take a big hit?

 

Learn me, oh wise ones.

 

if you can fit the full volume do it.  otherwise I guess you can just top off your BK with some water after the mash.

 

I have not been able to no sparge yet b/c I can't fit everything in my cooler.  but I have done a lot of 10 gal batches with a 1-2 gal sparge.  my efficiency has been just fine - generally around 78% +/- 4%.  I could probably get slightly better efficiency if I did a bigger sparge but I don't really care.

[shaggaroo]

And how fine do you mill? I suppose I could go finer to counteract any loss in efficiency

[positiveContact]

And how fine do you mill? I suppose I could go finer to counteract any loss in efficiency

 

well I'm not using a bag - just a standard cheap and easy cooler mash tun (Denny style with the SS braid for a filter).  I don't think I go crazy fine or anything.  I bought a barley crusher mill a few years back and I've never adjusted it from the factory setting.

 

eta:  I thought I read with the official BIAB bags that you could mill finer.  certainly that's something you could consider if the efficiency isn't to your liking.  are you pulling the bag and letting it drain?  I also seem to remember you can assume slightly lower absorption compared to my mashing/draining method.  something to keep in mind.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 12 April 2017 - 07:57 AM.

[neddles]

I BIAB with no sparge. Here is a brief rundown of my process as I have refined it.

 

1. Heat water and screen and bag then add grains. I have a pizza screen with stainless bolts capped by rounded nuts to act as 1/2" legs underneath. This eliminates the risk of burning the bag when I direct fire. Not sure if you are direct firing or not but it's become an integral part of my process. 

 

2. I will mash most beers these days @147-148F for 30-40 minutes and then step it up to alpha rest at ~162F for 10-30 minutes. I never mash more than and hour and sometimes a little less. If I am making a low gravity beer I will usually do a single infusion mash of 156-158F.  I get ~100% predicted conversion with these two mash schedules. Recipe formulation is a breeze. I simply assume 100% conversion and use my mash thickness and Kai's chart below to predict my pre-boil gravity. It is spot on about 90% of the time and never more than +/-0.001 from predicted. (except for Weyermann's Barke Pils which was like 2 or 3 points high, can't remember exactly) The step from 148F--->162F takes about 5-6 minutes with light stirring of the mash, depending on grist.

 

3.After the mash I hoist the bag and let it run out to pre-boil volume. Proceed with boil as normal which, these days, is almost always a 30 min boil.

 

*I have not really played with milling changes. I am getting 100% predicted conversion so I could experiment with milling less fine but for now everything is working well and consistent. Picture of my milled grain below (I do malt condition every batch these days too)

 

*I have stopped even looking at pre-boil gravity. I only check after the boil and that is where I see the at most +/-0.001 discrepancy.

 

ETA: I see the same predictability of OG even using generous percentages (20-25%) of flaked grains (usually wheat) and still never mash more than an hour FWIW. Wheat malt is never milled twice as some do.

 

Edited by neddles, 12 April 2017 - 08:30 AM.

[HVB]

I do both BIAB and NO-sparge with a bag and MLT.  I have not added back water and stirred it up yet but I will be doing that this weekend on a bigger batch.  I will find a picure of my crush and post it.  I am not crushing supper fine.

 

 

Edited by drez77, 12 April 2017 - 08:27 AM.

[denny]

And how fine do you mill? I suppose I could go finer to counteract any loss in efficiency

 

I mill as fine as my mill will go and do no sparge BIAB.  I take about a 10-15 point efficiency hit.  I use the same bags you do.

[HVB]

I mill as fine as my mill will go and do no sparge BIAB.  I take about a 10-15 point efficiency hit.  I use the same bags you do.

 

I know my batch sparge efficiency is no where near yours but I have the same efficiency with BIAB and sparging.  Both around 70-72%, while not great I chased it for a while and it never seemed to get much about 76% and I just deal with the extra pound or two now.

[positiveContact]

I mill as fine as my mill will go and do no sparge BIAB.  I take about a 10-15 point efficiency hit.  I use the same bags you do.

 

I have a hard time imagining that my 1 gal sparge on a 10 gal batch is much different than no sparge.  have you tried doing no sparge in  your regular mash tun cooler? (no BIAB)

[denny]

I have a hard time imagining that my 1 gal sparge on a 10 gal batch is much different than no sparge.  have you tried doing no sparge in  your regular mash tun cooler? (no BIAB)

 

Yeah.  Depending on batch size, it's anywhere from normal to 10 points less.  I haven't done a lot of BIAB so far, so I'm not ruling out that I'm doing something wrong.

[positiveContact]

Yeah.  Depending on batch size, it's anywhere from normal to 10 points less.  I haven't done a lot of BIAB so far, so I'm not ruling out that I'm doing something wrong.

 

just for ref, what is your efficiency like when you do your "normal" batch sparge?

[denny]

just for ref, what is your efficiency like when you do your "normal" batch sparge?

 

83%

[shaggaroo]

This is all great info guys, thanks very much. My usual batch sparge efficiency is about 80%. Maybe I should just build a recipe as I normally would, brew the beer and see what the eff hit is? or maybe assume I'll take a 10% hit?

[HVB]

This is all great info guys, thanks very much. My usual batch sparge efficiency is about 80%. Maybe I should just build a recipe as I normally would, brew the beer and see what the eff hit is? or maybe assume I'll take a 10% hit?

If it was me I would do as you normally do and then see where you end up.  Also remember to take into account you will not have any deadspace and grain absorption will be lower if you squeeze.

[neddles]

This is all great info guys, thanks very much. My usual batch sparge efficiency is about 80%. Maybe I should just build a recipe as I normally would, brew the beer and see what the eff hit is? or maybe assume I'll take a 10% hit?

Do you brew with software?

[positiveContact]

If it was me I would do as you normally do and then see where you end up.  Also remember to take into account you will not have any deadspace and grain absorption will be lower if you squeeze.

 

is squeezing bad or has there been no ruling on that or what?

[neddles]

is squeezing bad or has there been no ruling on that or what?

It's a non-issue.

[shaggaroo]

Do you brew with software?

yeah I generally use BeerSmith 2.0

[neddles]

This is all great info guys, thanks very much. My usual batch sparge efficiency is about 80%. Maybe I should just build a recipe as I normally would, brew the beer and see what the eff hit is? or maybe assume I'll take a 10% hit?

 

yeah I generally use BeerSmith 2.0

Perfect, that's what I use. First in BS you will need to configure one of the BIAB mash profiles they have in there to jibe with your equipment (kettle size, boil off, grain absorption, etc.) From there just plug in your recipe as you suggested. Then take the mash thickness of your recipe and look it up on the Kai's chart I posted above. Next adjust the "Tot Efficiency" number so that your pre-boil gravity matches the gravity you cross referenced on the chart. Now brew away. Any shortfall in your gravity will most likely be due to a lack of conversion. That should give you an idea as to wether or not your mash schedule is getting you complete conversion. If you see an unpredicted bump in gravity it will most likely be due to Malt/grain yielding higher than what is entered in BS for that malt/grain.

 

No-sparge/BIAB kettle efficiency is dependent on the mash ratio so there is no kettle efficiency you can assume will work for every recipe. The relationship of mash ratio to efficiency (into the kettle) is also non-linear. The higher gravity beers will be less efficient. Examples... on a OG1.040 beer I received 88.4% kettle eff. and for a OG1.086 beer I received 73.1% into the kettle. 

 

That chart above assumes 100% conversion for an average grist. (obviously some malts/grains have some variability in yield, but those differences will be minimal) 

 

I'm not sure 100% conversion is absolutely necessary but it will maximize your kettle efficiency in a sometimes less kettle efficient process. At the same time you will get very predictable results from your mash.

[Brauer]

...or do I mash with less than full then just add water to the kettle to make up the volume?

Don't do this, or your efficiency will drop dramatically.