50 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

On my recent 2 batches of lager (one with 2124, the other with the dry yeast equivalent) I decided to start a little higher than I normally would.  typically I start around 50F and this time I started close to 53-54F.  I also let the temp naturally rise in the chest freezer which in this case meant over the course of a few days it climbed to the upper 50s and then 60-61F.  now that I'm 4-5 days into the ferm I've started actively heating things to move them both up to 65F.  normally I would keep things cooler longer but after reading so much about this particular yeast being great even at ale temps I figured why not get on it a little more.  I'm thinking both fermentations will be done in under a week which is quite quick for a lager I'm thinking.  especially when one of them was around 1.067 (if I remember correctly, need to go back and look at notes).

 

sorry for the ramble - I'll post how these turn out.  should be interesting.

[Big Nake]

I have a couple of lagers cold, kegged and carbed in my on-deck fridge where I pitched at around 50°, put them into the fridge for 4-5 days and then took them out and placed them on the floor of my beer bunker so the temp could rise. I have not tasted these beers. I may have another one in a secondary where I did the same thing. I will be carefully taste-testing these beers to see if they are "as good" as the ones that were colder longer, "better", "not as good", etc. To be honest, I have no issues leaving a beer in the fridge for 2-3 weeks, taking it out to warm up/finish up and then transferring to a keg and chilling and carbing. The only benefit would be 1) speed if I needed it and/or 2) better beer which is always good. If these are actually BETTER than the versions that were colder longer, I would continue it.

[denny]

53-54 is not all that warm to start a lager.

[Big Nake]

That's probably especially true for 2124 which has an ideal temp range of 48-58° and a supposed "pseudo-ale" sweet spot around 75°. Versatile yeast although I have never used it at the higher temps.

[positiveContact]

I realize the start temp wasn't too high I guess but I did let it ramp up a lot sooner than I normally would.  normally I don't let the temp creep up until things start to slow down but this time I let the temp naturally rise with the fermentation and at this point I'm actively pushing it higher to finish out.

[Big Nake]

In the old days, the thought was that a lager yeast performing at higher-than-desired temps would produce esters and create a beer that was clunky or not clean. It appears that this newer information regarding the shorter lager method suggests that it's only in the first phase of fermentation that those flavors could develop and once you get past the 50% mark (or so), bringing the temp higher will speed up fermentation, potentially cleaning up any diacetyl or esters while the yeast is still very active and generally shorten the whole fermentation timeframe... is that correct? Did I miss any part of that? I know that I've read a number of articles on this but I'm not sure that I ever heard the "why it works and why we always thought differently" part of it.

[positiveContact]

In the old days, the thought was that a lager yeast performing at higher-than-desired temps would produce esters and create a beer that was clunky or not clean. It appears that this newer information regarding the shorter lager method suggests that it's only in the first phase of fermentation that those flavors could develop and once you get past the 50% mark (or so), bringing the temp higher will speed up fermentation, potentially cleaning up any diacetyl or esters while the yeast is still very active and generally shorten the whole fermentation timeframe... is that correct? Did I miss any part of that? I know that I've read a number of articles on this but I'm not sure that I ever heard the "why it works and why we always thought differently" part of it.

 

I likely pushed it up earlier than the 50% mark but maybe not by much.  I still had it sub 60F for the bulk of this ferm and maybe even "in range" for the first 50%.

[denny]

In the old days, the thought was that a lager yeast performing at higher-than-desired temps would produce esters and create a beer that was clunky or not clean. It appears that this newer information regarding the shorter lager method suggests that it's only in the first phase of fermentation that those flavors could develop and once you get past the 50% mark (or so), bringing the temp higher will speed up fermentation, potentially cleaning up any diacetyl or esters while the yeast is still very active and generally shorten the whole fermentation timeframe... is that correct? Did I miss any part of that? I know that I've read a number of articles on this but I'm not sure that I ever heard the "why it works and why we always thought differently" part of it.

 

Actually, the info is not new.  It's been around at least 50 years.  And while "we" homebrewers might have thought differently, commercial breweries have been doing this for many years.

Edited by denny, 31 March 2017 - 10:47 AM.

[Big Nake]

Actually, the info is not new.  It's been around at least 50 years.  And while "we" homebrewers might have thought differently, commercial breweries have been doing this for many years.

Yeah, I meant "new to us" or at least "new to me". I remember hearing things about commercial US breweries like Miller or Coors having their product from grain to can or bottle in 20 days or something and it's probably much quicker than that now. I assumed when I read it that they could do that because of some process or automation that would allow for that to happen and still make a palatable [a conversation for another time] product. I'm glad that I tried this method and maybe I'll sneak a cobra-tap sample of one of these kegged lagers tonight and see how they are compared to my standard, longer process.

[Poptop]

Having made only 2 lagers so far, I'm hardly able to make much comment but I stand by the McDole quick lager method and intend on continuing. 10 gallons of Vienna slated for Sunday 1/2 with dry 34/70 and 1/2 with S-189. My ferm temps for the first two were 53 degrees. So it goes.

[Big Nake]

Having made only 2 lagers so far, I'm hardly able to make much comment but I stand by the McDole quick lager method and intend on continuing. 10 gallons of Vienna slated for Sunday 1/2 with dry 34/70 and 1/2 with S-189. My ferm temps for the first two were 53 degrees. So it goes.

Oh yeah right, like we're going to listen to Mr. 2 Lagers over here.

[Steve Urquell]

I was reading the GBF for awhile trying to see if any of their ideas were worth using. My SOP is pitch ~54F and ferment from 50-56F letting it rise as fermentation slows. I always heat to 70F if needed to boil off acetaldehyde.

 

They said that allowing temps to rise was quote: "burning off all the malt flavor" and recommended keeping temps low all the way through (never rising above 50F) to preserve flavor. I tried this on a light lager that I have brewed before. It never fully got rid of the off flavors from fermentation even after lagering for months. Such horseshit.

 

TLDR: Let temps rise, Homes.

[Big Nake]

I was reading the GBF for awhile trying to see if any of their ideas were worth using. My SOP is pitch ~54F and ferment from 50-56F letting it rise as fermentation slows. I always heat to 70F if needed to boil off acetaldehyde.
 
They said that allowing temps to rise was quote: "burning off all the malt flavor" and recommended keeping temps low all the way through (never rising above 50F) to preserve flavor. I tried this on a light lager that I have brewed before. It never fully got rid of the off flavors from fermentation even after lagering for months. Such horseshit.
 
TLDR: Let temps rise, Homes.

At some early point in my lager brewing, I would ferment cold (50 or so) and go for however long and then transfer cold to a secondary which I also kept cold and eventually I went to the keg which went directly into the fridge for carbing. I ended up with a number of beers with diacetyl. I don't know if the GBF guys have a way around that but allowing it to get to room temp got me around that issue easily. I have sworn off any GBF nonsense and have not been on their site or FB page in a looooong time.

[Steve Urquell]

At some early point in my lager brewing, I would ferment cold (50 or so) and go for however long and then transfer cold to a secondary which I also kept cold and eventually I went to the keg which went directly into the fridge for carbing. I ended up with a number of beers with diacetyl. I don't know if the GBF guys have a way around that but allowing it to get to room temp got me around that issue easily. I have sworn off any GBF nonsense and have not been on their site or FB page in a looooong time.

It's like some kind of weird sickness. Does not compute to my mind. I don't play follow the leader though. I wear an onion on my belt too, as was fashionable back in the day.

[Big Nake]

It's like some kind of weird sickness. Does not compute to my mind. I don't play follow the leader though. I wear an onion on my belt too, as was fashionable back in the day.

The weird thing is that there are certain people in the center of that movement and some have told me that the person who you might consider at the EPICENTER is a strange and mystical person who knows what he's doing but can't communicate with others without having a temper tantrum. But now others are acting that same way and things are permeating through the group which means that either they're on to something big over there or something contagious is going around.

[Steve Urquell]

The weird thing is that there are certain people in the center of that movement and some have told me that the person who you might consider at the EPICENTER is a strange and mystical person who knows what he's doing but can't communicate with others without having a temper tantrum. But now others are acting that same way and things are permeating through the group which means that either they're on to something big over there or something contagious is going around.

Yeah, I read a bit on the FB page for awhile. I noticed some poor newbs excited to be posting about their first lagers only to get snobbish replies--nice. I'll take good knowledge and try it if i think it might improve my beer. But that stuff is beyond ridiculous. I can't imagine spending the effort to brew a batch a beer using the LODO method (and if you don't do it exactly this way you did it wrong)

 

Also, MUMA, VIMA, PIMA, CRYMA, SMOMA, BLAMA, TROWMA, EPAMA, VICTOMA

[Big Nake]

Yeah, I read a bit on the FB page for awhile. I noticed some poor newbs excited to be posting about their first lagers only to get snobbish replies--nice. I'll take good knowledge and try it if i think it might improve my beer. But that stuff is beyond ridiculous. I can't imagine spending the effort to brew a batch a beer using the LODO method (and if you don't do it exactly this way you did it wrong)
 
Also, MUMA, VIMA, PIMA, CRYMA, SMOMA, BLAMA, TROWMA, EPAMA, VICTOMA

I made the mistake of reporting back over there about my beers with brewtan. The response was swift and predictable. I agree with you... I'll listen to someone tell me all they know about making great beer and I have no issues trying this or that but I really don't care for the condescending attitude.

[positiveContact]

I was reading the GBF for awhile trying to see if any of their ideas were worth using. My SOP is pitch ~54F and ferment from 50-56F letting it rise as fermentation slows. I always heat to 70F if needed to boil off acetaldehyde.

 

They said that allowing temps to rise was quote: "burning off all the malt flavor" and recommended keeping temps low all the way through (never rising above 50F) to preserve flavor. I tried this on a light lager that I have brewed before. It never fully got rid of the off flavors from fermentation even after lagering for months. Such horseshit.

 

TLDR: Let temps rise, Homes.

 

pro german brewers raise the temps as part of their process.

[Steve Urquell]

pro german brewers raise the temps as part of their process.

That's not surprising. Germans know how to make great beer.

[positiveContact]

That's not surprising. Germans know how to make great beer.

 

granted - that's not the old school method for sure!  but when time is money accelerated maturation is a good thing.  maybe I'm wrong here though.