19 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I picked up some JosephBrau Czech Lager at the local Trader Joe's this week. I had a couple bottles yesterday and it's a nice beer. It's got quite a bit of the character of a Pilsner Urquell even down to the slight diacetyl character. But there is another flavor component of these beers and I wonder about where it comes from. I used to think that the yeast was part of it or maybe Saaz hops but I wonder about the type of malt they use. It's hard to explain but it's a sort of deep, malty, sort of 'tangy' thing that I pick up. Low pH? Chils or anyone else?

[Hines]

I can't help identify the flavors, but I can say that I do enjoy that beer as well.  It's a great summer brew when you need to throw a few back.

[Big Nake]

There is a definite character that is specific to this kind of beer. I have never used a specific BOHEMIAN pilsner malt so maybe that's it. Or maybe it's a combination of things. All I know is that this JosephBrau beer really captured what I taste in Pilsner Urquell and I'm curious about the origin of that character.

[denny]

Remember the never ending thread on the AHA forum about German lager character?  It went on for years and no one ever really figured it out.

[HVB]

Remember the never ending thread on the AHA forum about German lager character?  It went on for years and no one ever really figured it out.

I thought they figured IT out .. and IT became a LoDO

[positiveContact]

I thought they figured IT out .. and IT became a LoDO

 

since YOLO you should LoDO.

 

eta:  I haven't tried to make too many batches of this beer style but I also really enjoy a good one when I have a chance to have it.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 29 March 2017 - 12:54 PM.

[denny]

I thought they figured IT out .. and IT became a LoDO

 

I'm not sure...at one point Kai was speculating that it was the oxidation that gave it the character.

[Big Nake]

If anyone has access to this JosephBrau (brewed in San Jose, CA) try it and see if you pick it up. Also, I have used the term "fresh-cut grass" in the past and sometimes that was to describe some of the character you might get in a fresh German lager. The "fresh-cut grass" thing also seems to apply here (in a Czech lager) but the two characteristics are not really the same in the two beers. Fresh-cut grass might apply more to Czech than to German but I still don't know where it comes from. Ultra-fresh Saaz hops seem to be an obvious guess. Does Weyermann Bohemian pilsner malt produce that flavor?

[Steve Urquell]

I think it's a little yeast, malt, and a lot of Saaz leaf. I like yeast that has a little estery character for my Czech stuff. That's why I tolerate Mangrove M84s BS. I also get a little tea character from leaf hops that I feel contributes to the character I'm looking for.

 

I still feel the best Czech beer I've made was with Floor Malted Bopils, Saaz leaf, and MJ M84. Too bad I got burned on the bad floor malt. I feel I could have brewed with it for the rest of my life and not wanted for anything different.

 

I read Pivni Filosof's stuff to try and get a feel for how the Czechs brew. https://www.pivni-filosof.com/

 

I have not been to CZ but would love to at some point in my life. My experience with Czech beer has been with what I can get here and with reading so I'm no expert, I just love the soft malt character and floral hops.

 

 

 

[Big Nake]

I was going to mention this too: I poured the first of these into a nice beer glass and looked at the clear, dark gold beer and fluffy head and I thought I might try to get a sense of the yeast based on the aroma. I stood there and sniffed that beer for about 5 minutes. I have used 2000 Budvar, 2001 Urquell, 2124 Bohemian, 2278 Czech, 2782 Staro, and WL802 Budvar which you may assume is the same as 2000. I have used 2124 a lot (I mean... A LOT) and I feel like 2782 had a similar character to 2124 so I crossed those off the list. I haven't used 2000/802 or 2001 in a couple years so I'm not sure on those but as I sniffed that beer I concluded that the yeast seemed like 2278. Clean, clear, crisp. 2278 may produce a less-malty beer as compared to 2124 so that was my guess but of course I have no idea.

[denny]

If anyone has access to this JosephBrau (brewed in San Jose, CA) try it and see if you pick it up. Also, I have used the term "fresh-cut grass" in the past and sometimes that was to describe some of the character you might get in a fresh German lager. The "fresh-cut grass" thing also seems to apply here (in a Czech lager) but the two characteristics are not really the same in the two beers. Fresh-cut grass might apply more to Czech than to German but I still don't know where it comes from. Ultra-fresh Saaz hops seem to be an obvious guess. Does Weyermann Bohemian pilsner malt produce that flavor?

 

I've tried it several times. Not a fan.

[positiveContact]

I've tried it several times. Not a fan.

 

the beer or the malt?

[denny]

the beer or the malt?

 

the beer...seemed old and soapy

[Big Nake]

I noticed that there were two of these JosephBrau beers right next to each other... one called a Czech Lager (a refreshing, Bohemian lager with a yellow and brown label and cap) and a Czech Pilsner (a bitter Bohemian lager with a yellow and green label and cap). I picked up the first one which according to the label has only 18 IBUs which is hard to believe because it has more hop presence than that. Mine did not taste old or soapy and I thought it was a nice beer. But the character of it and the fact that I get a very similar character to that of Pilsner Urquell is what surprised me and I just wonder about where it came from.

[Steve Urquell]

Ken, let me see how this Czech Prostejov malt batch comes out with the MJ yeast. Maybe we do a trade or something if it comes out decent and I feel it has the character I'm looking for. I'll keep you updated.

 

ETA: I'm thinking of gelling it till it drops clear then keg hopping it with fresh Saaz leaf.

Edited by Steve Urquell, 30 March 2017 - 05:31 PM.

[Big Nake]

Ken, let me see how this Czech Prostejov malt batch comes out with the MJ yeast. Maybe we do a trade or something if it comes out decent and I feel it has the character I'm looking for. I'll keep you updated.
 
ETA: I'm thinking of gelling it till it drops clear then keg hopping it with fresh Saaz leaf.

Mmm, that sounds good. I know you make a lot of these styles so I'm officially naming you the comptroller of all things Czech Beer.

The thing about this is that I occasionally make my "gold lagers" and I might use 2124, 2308, 2352, S-189, etc. and I feel like they always come out pretty good. Some are better than others and some are stellar. But I don't think that I have ever had this character in one of my homebrewed gold lagers and I just wonder (as a brewer and beer drinker) what is bringing that character to the beer. With all of the yeast strains I have tried, I don't think that's it. I've tried a lot of base malts so it could be that but it would have to be some malt I haven't used. My Saaz hops are always "Czech" but always pellets and God knows if using fresh Saaz hops from the local hop farm in the Czech Republic brings out this character.

[Steve Urquell]

I don't know Ken. I do know that my best beer has been made with leaf. Ive kicked around other ideas about commercial beer being different tasting due to stainless fermenter contact and handing differences.

I think that is the "it" flavor the GBF dudes are looking for

[Big Nake]

I think that is the "it" flavor the GBF dudes are looking for

Well I'm confused then because I got the impression that the GBF guys were referring to German beers specifically (sometimes they even single out Helles as the style) and I'm referring to Czech styles. The character I'm referring to is something I have only experienced in Czech/Bohemian styles. When I went to Germany and Austria, the beers had a certain connection and when I went to Prague and Brataslava, those beers were quite different and had this character I'm referring to.

[Steve Urquell]

So, I'm drinking Praga pils right now looking for flavor differences between this and Kraut lager. What I'm getting that I also try to go for in my Czech beer is yeast derived. A little diacetyl, esters, malty flavors from lower attenuation. I don't get this from 2124 or 34/70. They taste very distinctive to me like sweet tarts or Wonka bottle caps candy but not Czech.

 

I haven't used 2278 or 2001 in a long time but remember 2278 being a bit clean for the "dirty" character I want.

 

I'm looking at Wyeast (Bavarian) - 2206 and liking what I see.

 

Used by many German breweries to produce rich, full-bodied, malty beers, this strain is a good choice for bocks and dopplebocks. A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.

Attenuation: 73-77%

[denny]

So, I'm drinking Praga pils right now looking for flavor differences between this and Kraut lager. What I'm getting that I also try to go for in my Czech beer is yeast derived. A little diacetyl, esters, malty flavors from lower attenuation. I don't get this from 2124 or 34/70. They taste very distinctive to me like sweet tarts or Wonka bottle caps candy but not Czech.

 

I haven't used 2278 or 2001 in a long time but remember 2278 being a bit clean for the "dirty" character I want.

 

I'm looking at Wyeast (Bavarian) - 2206 and liking what I see.

 

Used by many German breweries to produce rich, full-bodied, malty beers, this strain is a good choice for bocks and dopplebocks. A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.

Attenuation: 73-77%

 

FWIW, I've used 206 a lot.  One of the things I like about it is that it doesn't throw diacetyl.