16 replies to this topic

[Poptop]

Fellas, in my ever present search for new (to me) beers I stumbled across a classic that I want to try and make, now that I have lagering capability. httpss://www.weihenstephaner.de/en/our-beers/festbier/

What a great happy yellow lager that needs to be in my stomach. It has such a nice malt presence but still finishes dry enough for me. I know it won't be found much longer this year, so I picked up the 8 x 16 ouncers that were left at my packie.

Would this be considered a soup'ed up Helles or other? Has anyone had it? Made anything close? The website and or other forums don't seem to have much on it. I can see having this one as a standard go around in the keezer.

Cheers

[Big Nake]

I haven't had it in years. Many "festbiers" seem to be of this more pale variety (Hofbrau and a few others come to mind). Yes, it's probably an amped-up helles. Do you get any sense of late hops at all? Helles is often hopped only once or possibly something like a FWH plus a 60. Also, Weihenstephan's lager yeast (or one of them anyway) would be 2124 so there's a hint for you. One of my all-time favorite yeast and a good one for this style. If it were me, I'd mix up a 80% Weyermann Barke Pils and 20% Vienna (feel free to add 4 ounces of Carafoam or Carapils too) plus a FWH addition of Hallertau and then enough of a 60-minute addition to get you to the 26 IBUs. For that you could use Magnum, more Hallertau, etc. Use soft water that doesn't have a lot of sulfate in it. Mash at a relatively low temp for your system (for me it would be about 150°) and then ferment with 2124. I think you would be pretty happy with that. You also have to be careful with your pH (and pretty much everything else)... helles can be tricky to make.

[Poptop]

I knew I could count on you Brother Ken. All makes perfect sense to me. I do not find a lot of back end hops but what's in there is very well balanced. Do you think the dry 34/70 could work at least as a first run because that is what I have on hand as well as the other ingredients you suggested. Agree that everything I have read recently tells me a Helles, as simple as a beer it is, is not a simple beer to make because there's no place to hide

Edited by Steppedonapoptop, 15 November 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[Big Nake]

I knew I could count on you Brother Ken. All makes perfect sense to me. Do you think the dry 34/70 could work at least as a first run because that is what I have on hand as well as the other ingredients you suggested. Agree that everything I have read recently tells me a Helles, as simple as a beer it is, is not a simple beer to make because there's no place to hide

I haven't used the 34/70 but I have heard that it's the dry version of 2124 so if you've used it and you know it's character, giddy up. I wanted to mention something else that I do in these cases where the beer is simple, the grain bill is supposed to be simple and the body and mouthfeel are supposed to be good but the finish is supposed to be dry. For the soft, round & smooth fullness & body of the beer, I use a good amount of calcium chloride. My source water has 27ppm of SO4 which I leave right there. I also have 21ppm of chloride and I typically add about 3g of CaCl to the strike water which might put my chloride near 70ppm or so. That, plus the slightly deeper character of the Barke Pils plus the Vienna should give a decent mouthfeel to the beer. To get the crisp & dry finish, a lower mash temp plus that 27ppm of sulfate are going to help. I make a lot of beer like this (but closer to 5%) and I have gotten some very positive results with this. Fresh ingredients are essential on a beer like this too. Cheers my friend... sounds like a delicious beer.

[Poptop]

I'll definitely compare your numbers to my water to see what I can do with this. Thanks Ken.

[positiveContact]

I don't know if I've ever had one of their beers that didn't use their signature yeast.  it would be interesting to try this out.

[Big Nake]

When you're drinking beer anyplace in central Europe, a beer like this (ranging slightly in SRM, ABV and IBUs) is everywhere. You walk down a brick-paved street into an open area where there are tables and umbrellas everywhere and most people have a gold beer in front of them. In some places you can just order "BEER" and not even know what you're getting. Most of these end up in the helles-dort-pils neighborhood (with the occasional pale festbier/super-helles) with slightly different characteristics but the aim is the same... gold, clear, refreshing, delicious. We experienced this in Vienna, Brataslava, Prague, Munich, Frankfurt and parts of Croatia. What's funny is that when I make a beer like this and have it on tap, most "light beer" drinkers absolutely love it. They're drinking it because it's a pale lager but the similarities end there. My sisters drink things like Michelob Ultra or Coors Light. They see one of my helles or maybe an "American Premium" and assume it's similar to what they normally drink but it's not. It's not necessarily stronger but it's slightly hoppier and certainly better in general because it's meant to be of "German origin". I was a very happy brewer once I found a way to make beers like this well and consistently and I pretty much always have some version of it on tap.

[Poptop]

Great response. My BIL drinks Bud Light but when he has my version of Kolsch for example he has several. You'd think that after that, he'd maybe spend a few more seconds in the beer aisle and pick out something different, but noooooooo. Perhaps people that gravitate to the same old watery thing are just fraidy-cats.

[positiveContact]

No offense to your peeps but if they really like bud/coors light and not much else the subtitles of your well crafted beers are probably lost on them.  basically as long as the beer doesn't have any moderately extreme flavor (hops, malt, roast, sour, etc.) they are probably going to like it.  and it pretty much doesn't matter if the beer is good either.

 

This is obviously not the case for you guys since you are experienced brewers but I've also seen bud drinkers down bad examples of blondes and similar (homebrew) and loved it.  I really think they can't taste the issues and are happy it's free.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 16 November 2016 - 01:27 PM.

[Big Nake]

There is something to be said for free beer. My hope would be that someone might drink my beer a few times and then go back to their watery, canned macro-swill and wince. Depending on where you live, there plenty of places that sell delicious, well-made lager beer that is either domestic/craft or from Europe. Some people are definitely quantity over quality though... and you can't help them.

We had a party last Labor Day weekend and I labeled a cooler in the backyard "sports drinks". Inside was Miller Lite. I also had a keg of one of my Mexican Amber Lagers out on the patio. One woman that I only see every few years was outside holding a can of Lite (unopened) and I saw her and pointed to it and said, "HA! Sports drink!" and she gave me the look, laughed, put it back and tapped some of that kegged lager. Oh my God, it's so good! Case. Closed.

[positiveContact]

There is something to be said for free beer. My hope would be that someone might drink my beer a few times and then go back to their watery, canned macro-swill and wince. Depending on where you live, there plenty of places that sell delicious, well-made lager beer that is either domestic/craft or from Europe. Some people are definitely quantity over quality though... and you can't help them.

We had a party last Labor Day weekend and I labeled a cooler in the backyard "sports drinks". Inside was Miller Lite. I also had a keg of one of my Mexican Amber Lagers out on the patio. One woman that I only see every few years was outside holding a can of Lite (unopened) and I saw her and pointed to it and said, "HA! Sports drink!" and she gave me the look, laughed, put it back and tapped some of that kegged lager. Oh my God, it's so good! Case. Closed.

 

yeah, for some people it's just that they didn't know there was something better out there.  isn't that how we all ended up here?

Edited by Evil_Morty, 16 November 2016 - 01:29 PM.

[Big Nake]

yeah, for some people it's just that they didn't know there was something better out there.  isn't that how we all ended up here?

But IME, my beers have to be pretty tame or well-made for most standard swill-drinkers to enjoy them. They'll drink a helles, pils, American lager, etc. and they'll drink things like festbier, amber lagers, blonde ales, pale ales that aren't overly hoppy, red lagers, etc. People who drink swill are not used to a lot of flavor and for them... swill is beer. Beer is swill. That is their everyday beer experience. So if I have them try a blonde ale (which sounds tame to us) with 30 IBUs and it's made with Sterling and Ultra hops plus it's not a lager but an ale... you'd think their head would explode. Not everyone is like that, clearly. Sometimes people come over and want Belgians, stouts or the hoppiest IPA ever. Sorry. That's why I keep commercial beer in the house too.

[Poptop]

yeah, for some people it's just that they didn't know there was something better out there.  isn't that how we all ended up here?

True words

[positiveContact]

But IME, my beers have to be pretty tame or well-made for most standard swill-drinkers to enjoy them. They'll drink a helles, pils, American lager, etc. and they'll drink things like festbier, amber lagers, blonde ales, pale ales that aren't overly hoppy, red lagers, etc. People who drink swill are not used to a lot of flavor and for them... swill is beer. Beer is swill. That is their everyday beer experience. So if I have them try a blonde ale (which sounds tame to us) with 30 IBUs and it's made with Sterling and Ultra hops plus it's not a lager but an ale... you'd think their head would explode. Not everyone is like that, clearly. Sometimes people come over and want Belgians, stouts or the hoppiest IPA ever. Sorry. That's why I keep commercial beer in the house too.

 

I was introduced to good beer in what I think is the best way possible.  as a teen I had only ever had pretty awful stuff.  bud light, Michelob light, rolling rock.  then I had some hofbrauhaus in munich and holy shit it was good.  I thought I didn't like beer and it turns out I really liked beer.  then I returned to beer purgatory until I was 21.  even the craft brew in the late 90s and early 2000s wasn't that great.  IPAs that were WAY too bitter for my liking for instance.  once I turned 21 craft beer still wasn't really all that appealing to me.  I was looking for European lagers and then imported stouts, ESBs, etc.

[Poptop]

I was introduced to good beer in what I think is the best way possible.  as a teen I had only ever had pretty awful stuff.  bud light, Michelob light, rolling rock.  then I had some hofbrauhaus in munich and holy shit it was good.  I thought I didn't like beer and it turns out I really liked beer.  then I returned to beer purgatory until I was 21.  even the craft brew in the late 90s and early 2000s wasn't that great.  IPAs that were WAY too bitter for my liking for instance.  once I turned 21 craft beer still wasn't really all that appealing to me.  I was looking for European lagers and then imported stouts, ESBs, etc.

I've come full circle from the enamel chipping IPA's. Can't take them any longer. Seeking and making far smoother brews and if they have a neat history, then somehow they taste that much better.

[Big Nake]

Brother Poptop... did you read the story of Helles that I've posted a few times? I realize your beer here is more of a helles-on-steroids but the story is good and the article explains a little bit about how the style is made.

[Poptop]

I have not Ken, but I'll locate it for sure. You do have me a bit nervous about the water tho. I don't do water (yet).