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#21 ER Pemberton

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:16 AM

See there is the rub.  Solely that?  No, who does.  If you are dirt poor and fighting just to feed the kids and make ends meet most people will root for you.  However, if you are dirt poor and decide to rob a bank, and for the sake of the analogy we will say non-violently - nobody is hurt or killed.  Well, now you are still dirt poor just trying to make ends meet, but now you have broken the law to do it. For me, that takes away the sympathy.  Same with illegal immigration.
 
Sure, we likely need to have a conversation on how to streamline the legal immigration process.  But once they disrespect our laws and enter illegally, feck em.  They are no longer primarily a person trying to feed their family.  They are a criminal.

Agreed. It's not like you don't understand the human element. I get that these are people and families are here and some are citizens and some are not... I get all of that. But nobody wants to talk about the specific issue of people coming here illegally and that they are violating American laws. They want to talk about racism, nativism, anti-immigration, hate and being un-American instead of looking at the issue itself.

#22 davelew

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:21 AM

People want to say that this type of talk (stopping illegal immigration) is un-American. How is that possible? Crossing into the country illegally violates an American law. I see a panel of people (some left and some right) and the lefties are talking about Trump being anti-immigration and that he is offensive to all immigrants and nobody says anything about the fact that we have "immigration" and we have "illegal immigration". One is okay and one is not. What's the problem?

 

The problem is that the laws around immigration are so incredibly complex that it's really, really hard to follow them.  Think tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees for a complex case, maybe $500 for the most simple case involving a spouse.  There are also lotteries because so few people are allowed in legally (from some South American countries, as few as 1% of all applicants are accepted).  Furthermore, individual petty bureaucrats have an enormous amount of power:

 

 

 

In other cases, consular officers may have developed more specific ideas about your country. For example, there’s a story about a consular officer in Eastern Europe who maintained that people from that country would always return home at the expiration of their permitted stay if they owned cows. Later, when applicants got wise and started claiming cow ownership, he began quizzing them on the names of those cows. Applicants who faltered or didn’t supply "cow-type" names were denied the visas.

 

Illegal immigrants are evidence that this complexity is not needed.  Illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than Americans, pay more taxes relative to the services they use, and help the American economy.  And yet we have laws to keep these people out.  That just seems wrong to me.


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#23 Zsasz

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:26 AM

The issue is misrepresented because it riles up more people and makes the law and order types look like horrible people.  You get a more motivated base when people are convinced they are fighting evildoers.

 

sup.


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#24 BrewerGeorge

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:29 AM

Agreed. It's not like you don't understand the human element. I get that these are people and families are here and some are citizens and some are not... I get all of that. But nobody wants to talk about the specific issue of people coming here illegally and that they are violating American laws. They want to talk about racism, nativism, anti-immigration, hate and being un-American instead of looking at the issue itself.

I used to think this way, too, but now I'm more interested in whether it's a just law.  If it's an unjust law, I don't feel we have a moral obligation to follow it simply for the sake of "following the law."  It's like how we (some of us) expect juries to, say, refuse to find find guilty a guy on trial for killing his daughter's rapist, for example.  

 

So the question for me is no longer black-and-white "they broke the law."  Now I need to be convinced that simply moving to another country, getting a job, paying taxes, etc is morally wrong above and beyond what the law says.  I have yet to hear a good argument that it is.



#25 neddles

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:29 AM

Clearly political dogmatics have used the issue to rally the stupid. Meanwhile the both increase in US population from illegals and workers willing to work low wage and sub-minimum wage jobs is a plus long term for the economy. Add in the difficulty both keeping them out and returning them and justification for complacency becomes obvious.


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#26 Zsasz

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:32 AM

I used to think this way, too, but now I'm more interested in whether it's a just law.  If it's an unjust law, I don't feel we have a moral obligation to follow it simply for the sake of "following the law."  It's like how we (some of us) expect juries to, say, refuse to find find guilty a guy on trial for killing his daughter's rapist, for example.  

 

So the question for me is no longer black-and-white "they broke the law."  Now I need to be convinced that simply moving to another country, getting a job, paying taxes, etc is morally wrong above and beyond what the law says.  I have yet to hear a good argument that it is.

 

I think this sums it up pretty well.  people who are often painted as anti-immigrants want the law to be followed.  unfortunately the law is kind of anti-immigrant.


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#27 Buzz Buzzard

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:41 AM

Divide and Conquer TM

 

'merka


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#28 davelew

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:46 AM

I think this sums it up pretty well.  people who are often painted as anti-immigrants want the law to be followed.  unfortunately the law is kind of anti-immigrant.

 

I'd go further than just calling it "anti-immigrant".  It's fecking random.  For example, US immigration law sets limits so that no country can have more than 47,250 immigrants coming to the US in a given year, regardless of the size of that country (the 47,250 rule applies equally to the 1,357,000,000 people in China and to the 33,720 people in Liechtenstein).

 

More and more tech companies are hiring people in India, because that's where the workers are.  Many of those workers would like to come to the US and pay US taxes and spend their salaries to help the US economy, but fecked up immigration rules keep that from happening.  People focus on illegal immigrants as the victims of US immigration law, but that ignores everybody who does business mostly in the US who has fewer customers because of the law, and also the would-be immigrants who stay home.

 

TLDR, it's a bad law, and it's hard for me to villainize people who break such a bad law.


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#29 ER Pemberton

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:47 AM

Clearly political dogmatics have used the issue to rally the stupid. Meanwhile the both increase in US population from illegals and workers willing to work low wage and sub-minimum wage jobs is a plus long term for the economy. Add in the difficulty both keeping them out and returning them and justification for complacency becomes obvious.

Very true. I understand why little or nothing has been done because it's a complex issue with very little in the way of solution. But you can't resolve a problem if you don't acknowledge the problem and the point I'm making is that some people want to either ignore that there is a problem or they want to use a personal attack against those who want to acknowledge the problem. I think it's a gimmick meant to silence people through a personal attack and where the human element and emotions are discussed instead of the actual issue. The point of this thread was not "immigration" legal or otherwise or a solution as much as the disguise that people use to avoid talking about it with some amount of common sense. If someone brings up "immigration" and someone else cries "racism"... that's the part I can't stand.

#30 Trub L

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:52 AM

TLDR, it's a bad law, and it's hard for me to villainize people who break such a bad law.

 

Do you feel the same way about people who evade taxes under the belief that it's a "bad law" to subject their income to so many penalties?


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#31 the_stain

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:52 AM

I'm sure this is just one of the typical attempts to paint law and order advocates as evil racists, as has already been pointed out. But if you're actually being genuine here, then the answer would be, "uhhhh...because that's not where they're coming from?"

https://immigration....00845#countries


Do you suppose most people are aware of this? Or maybe, just maybe, Mexican immigrants happen to be the most "visible" ones.
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#32 BrewerGeorge

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:58 AM

Do you feel the same way about people who evade taxes under the belief that it's a "bad law" to subject their income to so many penalties?

Hell yes, I do!

 

Why would it be wrong to hide your riches from thieves?

 

all-these-people-upsetattaxevasion-and-i

 

:troll:



#33 Brownbeard

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 07:46 AM

I support undocumented workers, who are in search of a better life.  I know lots of people who have committed misdemeanors, without any punishment.  In the case of undocumented workers, their misdemeanor actually benefits society as a whole.  I side with Gary Johnson, in that we need a path to citizenship for undocumented workers.  And then we need to fix the immigration system.  As for why I think the people who are "anti-illegal immigrant" are racist, I only ever hear them talk about Mexicans.  They can't even bother to recognize that not all hispanics are mexican.  They all look alike, I suppose.


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#34 davelew

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 07:52 AM

Do you feel the same way about people who evade taxes under the belief that it's a "bad law" to subject their income to so many penalties?

 

No, because the victims of tax evasion are every taxpayer.  Illegal immigration is a victimless crime.


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#35 thedisappearer

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 07:55 AM

The problem is that the laws around immigration are so incredibly complex that it's really, really hard to follow them.  Think tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees for a complex case, maybe $500 for the most simple case involving a spouse.  There are also lotteries because so few people are allowed in legally (from some South American countries, as few as 1% of all applicants are accepted).  Furthermore, individual petty bureaucrats have an enormous amount of power:
 

 
Illegal immigrants are evidence that this complexity is not needed.  Illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than Americans, pay more taxes relative to the services they use, and help the American economy.  And yet we have laws to keep these people out.  That just seems wrong to me.

 
This.

 

I used to think this way, too, but now I'm more interested in whether it's a just law.  If it's an unjust law, I don't feel we have a moral obligation to follow it simply for the sake of "following the law."  It's like how we (some of us) expect juries to, say, refuse to find find guilty a guy on trial for killing his daughter's rapist, for example.  
 
So the question for me is no longer black-and-white "they broke the law."  Now I need to be convinced that simply moving to another country, getting a job, paying taxes, etc is morally wrong above and beyond what the law says.  I have yet to hear a good argument that it is.

And this.

I don't think people who are "anti-immigrant" are always, or usually, racist. I do think they are short sighted.
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#36 Vagus

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 08:45 AM

From my point of view, it's useful to regulate the influx of people into a country.  And i think that most countries regulate.  It might be more of an emotionally blurred issue here because we're all either immigrants, descendants of immigrants, know or love someone who has suffered from immigration, migration, emigration, stampedes, tragic nomadic murrah milk orgies, or even death.  If the laws are insane, why aren't they being fixed.  Cuz of short sightedness on one side, only?


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#37 Kellermeister

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 08:54 AM

The USA illegally took California, Arizona and New Mexico from Mexico.  No surprise that the Mexican people believe they have a right to live there.


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#38 ER Pemberton

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 09:12 AM

I guess the part I can't get past is that adults can't have this conversation without name-calling and personally attacking. This is why it's hard to get things done... optics and politics over solutions. I should state for the record that this goes in all directions and all parties do this. This is just one example.

#39 Vagus

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 09:13 AM

I guess the part I can't get past is that adults can't have this conversation without name-calling and personally attacking. This is why it's hard to get things done... optics and politics over solutions. I should state for the record that this goes in all directions and all parties do this. This is just one example.

Rather than get past it, i think im just going to reduce myself to it.  Ima draw a dik on som peeps.


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#40 JKor

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 09:14 AM

I support undocumented workers, who are in search of a better life. I know lots of people who have committed misdemeanors, without any punishment. In the case of undocumented workers, their misdemeanor actually benefits society as a whole. I side with Gary Johnson, in that we need a path to citizenship for undocumented workers. And then we need to fix the immigration system. As for why I think the people who are "anti-illegal immigrant" are racist, I only ever hear them talk about Mexicans. They can't even bother to recognize that not all hispanics are mexican. They all look alike, I suppose.


It's because they're racist, not because Mexico has 10x as many immigrants to the US than any other country?
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