34 replies to this topic

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

To me dry kind of gives me that dry feeling in my mouth and usually the absence of sweetness. This Scottish 80 shilling is perplexing though b/c it is a little bit sweet but also definitely has a dry finish. What gives?

[MtnBrewer]

To me dry kind of gives me that dry feeling in my mouth and usually the absence of sweetness. This Scottish 80 shilling is perplexing though b/c it is a little bit sweet but also definitely has a dry finish. What gives?

Dry is simply the absence of sweetness. It's that simple. Some people (not saying you're one of them) incorrectly call dryness the puckery sensation from young red wines. That's actually astringency (from tannins in this case). Usually with dryness you also get a thinner mouthfeel and less body because sugar is one thing that causes a fuller body.

[RommelMagic]

To me dry kind of gives me that dry feeling in my mouth and usually the absence of sweetness. This Scottish 80 shilling is perplexing though b/c it is a little bit sweet but also definitely has a dry finish. What gives?

Tannins perhaps?EDIT: Mtn beat me to it

Edited by RommelMagic, 05 October 2009 - 05:20 PM.

[Winkydowbrewing]

like dirt, and by dirt i mean specifically not mud because mud has moisture in it...clay is also out.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Dry is simply the absence of sweetness. It's that simple. Some people (not saying you're one of them) incorrectly call dryness the puckery sensation from young red wines. That's actually astringency (from tannins in this case). Usually with dryness you also get a thinner mouthfeel and less body because sugar is one thing that causes a fuller body.

It seems to say in the BJCP guidelines that this beer is sweet initially and dry towards the end which makes me think that sweet and dry aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I think this is what's going on but perhaps not...

Flavor: Malt is the primary flavor, but isn’t overly strong. The initial malty sweetness is usually accentuated by a low to moderate kettle caramelization, and is sometimes accompanied by a low diacetyl component. Fruity esters may be moderate to none. Hop bitterness is low to moderate, but the balance will always be towards the malt (although not always by much). Hop flavor is low to none. A low to moderate peaty character is optional, and may be perceived as earthy or smoky. Generally has a grainy, dry finish due to small amounts of unmalted roasted barley.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Briess description of roasted barley:https://www.brewingw...sted_Barley.htm

Lovibond Flavor Unique Characteristics/Applications300 Rich Roasted Coffee Intense Bitter Dry Contributes the roasted coffee flavor that is characteristic of Stout. Also adds complexity in Porters, Nut Brown Ales and other dark beer styles.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

No more thoughts from anyone?

[Humperdink]

I am no BJCP judge, this is just my understanding of "dry". To me a dry beer is one that doesn't linger on the tongue, it kind of disappears once swallowed. I generally brew beers with little residual sugars to get my FG down because i prefer that, however, I think that gravity and sweetness are not necessarily the same thing. My understanding is that dextrins are not sweet, however they add body and gravity points. Given that, I would say that you can have a somewhat sweet and still dry beer and a beer with full body but not sweet. To me, dry is a low finishing gravity, something along the lines of <1.009. That's my arbitrary number i assign it. I think that often times full bodied beers are accompanied by sweetness but they are not one in the same.

[stellarbrew]

My understanding has always been that dry means not sweet. I think it's possible to have an initial impression of sweetness from malt flavors and from a dextrine fullness to a beer's body, yet the same beer can finish dry. Sort of like you are teased into thinking it will be sweet, but in the end, the sweetness is lacking.I think that roasted barley lends a lot of flavor and body which leads you into expecting a sweet finish, but alas, the roastiness stays dry in the end. This is my untrained impression; I could be FOS.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

That's what's a little bit confusing - Scottish 80 shilling doesn't have a super low FG (1.015 in my case) but it definitely has a dry finish in my opinion (and the BJCP entry confirms this).

[Genesee Ted]

I made an attempt at explaining this to someone the other day and was told that I was wrong. But, as Mtn stated, dry is the absence of sugar. The quantitative measure of dryness is simply how much residual sugar there is. Some confuse fruity tastes with a lack of dryness, which of course is not correct either. Many people get confused on wines for this reason. I was drinking some good red wine and it was totally dry, no sugars left at all, gravity had to be less than 1.000. This guy was trying to tell me that the wine was sweet and not dry. I wish I had my hydrometer with me. A lot of people for whatever reason seem to associate dry with "lacking flavor". Any display of fruit and it is instantly sweet.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I made an attempt at explaining this to someone the other day and was told that I was wrong. But, as Mtn stated, dry is the absence of sugar. The quantitative measure of dryness is simply how much residual sugar there is. Some confuse fruity tastes with a lack of dryness, which of course is not correct either. Many people get confused on wines for this reason. I was drinking some good red wine and it was totally dry, no sugars left at all, gravity had to be less than 1.000. This guy was trying to tell me that the wine was sweet and not dry. I wish I had my hydrometer with me. A lot of people for whatever reason seem to associate dry with "lacking flavor". Any display of fruit and it is instantly sweet.

does this mean the BJCP guideline contradicts itself?what you are also saying is at odds with saying roasted barely gives a dry quality.I'm not arguing to be a jerk here - I just think there must be a lot of confusion or differing opinion out there on what "dry" means.

[Genesee Ted]

It doesn't surprise me that the BJCP contradicts itself, but I think what they are trying to get at (as well as the RB descriptor) is that many people do get the impression that the tannic or similar sensations on the palate imitate the sensation of dryness. It may be technically incorrect, but it is more appealing that saying it has a coarse mouthfeel.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

It doesn't surprise me that the BJCP contradicts itself, but I think what they are trying to get at (as well as the RB descriptor) is that many people do get the impression that the tannic or similar sensations on the palate imitate the sensation of dryness. It may be technically incorrect, but it is more appealing that saying it has a coarse mouthfeel.

I like to eat gravel so I don't follow

[Genesee Ted]

I hear you but perhaps leathery or tar is a better descriptor. Those are used by wine writers to describe the tannin sensation.

[djinkc]

Lack of sugar - sureRoasted malts - I think it's more tannic than dryEtOH - I think a beer with a higher ABV can taste drier than a lower ABV beer that has the same finishing gravity

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

so are we saying here that a certain amount of tannins due to highly kilned malt is acceptable for some styles?

[Thirsty]

does this mean the BJCP guideline contradicts itself?

I dont think it is as much as a contradiction, but instead a play on perception. A scottish 80/- (like an Orkney's dark island) is malty and showcases kettle carmelization, but dosnt necessarily mean it is sweet- it is perceived to start off that way, in both the aroma and the initial flavor. However after having a couple sips, and letting it finish, it may finish dry. Possessing both qualities in the same beer. Unlike a BW that may start sweet and malty, then have a lingering bitterness, the bitterness is not dry, it is just bitter. That profile, although puckering sometimes fromn the bitterness- still has a sweetness left behind well into the finish. Good ones are not cloying- but that sweetness does remain. Maltiness and sweetness are seperate- although very easy to think of them as the same.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I dont think it is as much as a contradiction, but instead a play on perception. A scottish 80/- (like an Orkney's dark island) is malty and showcases kettle carmelization, but dosnt necessarily mean it is sweet- it is perceived to start off that way, in both the aroma and the initial flavor. However after having a couple sips, and letting it finish, it may finish dry. Possessing both qualities in the same beer. Unlike a BW that may start sweet and malty, then have a lingering bitterness, the bitterness is not dry, it is just bitter. That profile, although puckering sometimes fromn the bitterness- still has a sweetness left behind well into the finish. Good ones are not cloying- but that sweetness does remain. Maltiness and sweetness are seperate- although very easy to think of them as the same.

wouldn't something with a semi-high FG be considered sweet?

[Thirsty]

wouldn't something with a semi-high FG be considered sweet?

Here is an example where an extremely high FG will give a sweet beginning, but again the RB and the alcohol give it a dry finish. Very malty, but never cloying. Read the flavor section9E. Strong Scotch Ale Aroma: Deeply malty, with caramel often apparent. Peaty, earthy and/or smoky secondary aromas may also be present, adding complexity. Caramelization often is mistaken for diacetyl, which should be low to none. Low to moderate esters and alcohol are often present in stronger versions. Hops are very low to none. Appearance: Light copper to dark brown color, often with deep ruby highlights. Clear. Usually has a large tan head, which may not persist in stronger versions. Legs may be evident in stronger versions. Flavor: Richly malty with kettle caramelization often apparent (particularly in stronger versions). Hints of roasted malt or smoky flavor may be present, as may some nutty character, all of which may last into the finish. Hop flavors and bitterness are low to medium-low, so malt impression should dominate. Diacetyl is low to none, although caramelization may sometimes be mistaken for it. Low to moderate esters and alcohol are usually present. Esters may suggest plums, raisins or dried fruit. The palate is usually full and sweet, but the finish may be sweet to medium-dry (from light use of roasted barley). Mouthfeel: Medium-full to full-bodied, with some versions (but not all) having a thick, chewy viscosity. A smooth, alcoholic warmth is usually present and is quite welcome since it balances the malty sweetness. Moderate carbonation. Overall Impression: Rich, malty and usually sweet, which can be suggestive of a dessert. Complex secondary malt flavors prevent a one-dimensional impression. Strength and maltiness can vary. Comments: Also known as a “wee heavy.” Fermented at cooler temperatures than most ales, and with lower hopping rates, resulting in clean, intense malt flavors. Well suited to the region of origin, with abundant malt and cool fermentation and aging temperature. Hops, which are not native to Scotland and formerly expensive to import, were kept to a minimum. Ingredients: Well-modified pale malt, with up to 3% roasted barley. May use some crystal malt for color adjustment; sweetness usually comes not from crystal malts rather from low hopping, high mash temperatures, and kettle caramelization. A small proportion of smoked malt may add depth, though a peaty character (sometimes perceived as earthy or smoky) may also originate from the yeast and native water. Hop presence is minimal, although English varieties are most authentic. Fairly soft water is typical. Vital Statistics: OG: 1.070 – 1.130 IBUs: 17 – 35 FG: 1.018 – 1.056 SRM: 14 – 25 ABV: 6.5 – 10%