18 replies to this topic

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

... before the finished product starts tasting chalky?ppm is fine.

[JReigle]

... before the finished product starts tasting chalky?ppm is fine.

Chalk doesn't really dissolve into solution, so I don't think it will really carry over much into the finished beer in the quantities you'd use in the mash. Most of it that makes it out of the mash tun will precipitate out in the boil anyway. I would think that this shouldn't be a problem assuming you're just buffering your mash pH from acidic malts.

[MtnBrewer]

Chalk doesn't really dissolve into solution, so I don't think it will really carry over much into the finished beer in the quantities you'd use in the mash. Most of it that makes it out of the mash tun will precipitate out in the boil anyway. I would think that this shouldn't be a problem assuming you're just buffering your mash pH from acidic malts.

Chalk does dissolve. It's used regularly to adjust mash pH.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Chalk doesn't really dissolve into solution, so I don't think it will really carry over much into the finished beer in the quantities you'd use in the mash. Most of it that makes it out of the mash tun will precipitate out in the boil anyway. I would think that this shouldn't be a problem assuming you're just buffering your mash pH from acidic malts.

Right now Palmer's spreadsheet is predicting I need 9 tsp of chalk (16.2g) to get my RA above the lower end of the range for a 36.73 SRM beer. Does this even seem possible?note: 5 gallon batch of dry stout

[MolBasser]

Right now Palmer's spreadsheet is predicting I need 9 tsp of chalk (16.2g) to get my RA above the lower end of the range for a 36.73 SRM beer. Does this even seem possible?note: 5 gallon batch of dry stout

That doesn't seem like too much.ETA, yeah, that does seem a bit high, but it isn't so high as to really mess anything up.BrewBasser

[JReigle]

Chalk does dissolve. It's used regularly to adjust mash pH.

As I understand it, it's poorly soluble in water. I don't think that prevents it from affecting your mash, pH however, and I too use it for pH adjustments on darker beers. This seems inline with at least the wikipedia page on calcium carbonate and google for "is chalk soluble in water".

[MtnBrewer]

As I understand it, it's poorly soluble in water. I don't think that prevents it from affecting your mash, pH however, and I too use it for pH adjustments on darker beers. This seems inline with at least the wikipedia page on calcium carbonate and google for "is chalk soluble in water".

True that it's insoluble in water but it's beer we're discussing.

[JReigle]

Right now Palmer's spreadsheet is predicting I need 9 tsp of chalk (16.2g) to get my RA above the lower end of the range for a 36.73 SRM beer. Does this even seem possible?note: 5 gallon batch of dry stout

Not unreasonable at all, I've got pretty soft water and routinely add that much for dark beers.

[JReigle]

True that it's insoluble in water but it's beer we're discussing.

Well, it seems that the solubility remains pretty constant and minimal until the pH of the solution drops below 2 or so, so this should hold true for both beer and water. My point here is that I think it's very unlikely he's going to get a chalk taste by using chalk in amounts necessary to buffer mash ph.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Thanks all - having never had to add this much chalk to my mash before it seemed a little out of whack at first glance.

[dagomike]

chalk dissolves much better in the mash than water.That sounds like a lot of chalk if this is a 5 gal batch.

[shaggaroo]

Well, it seems that the solubility remains pretty constant and minimal until the pH of the solution drops below 2 or so, so this should hold true for both beer and water. My point here is that I think it's very unlikely he's going to get a chalk taste by using chalk in amounts necessary to buffer mash ph.

OK, so if my calculations are correct, at mash pH's CaCO₃ is approximately 460 x more soluble than in pure water_________________CaCO₃(s) ⇌ Ca²⁺ + CO₃^2- K_sp = 8.7 x 10^-9Therefore in pure water, solubility = 9.3 x 10^-5 mol/L = 0.0093 g/L = 9.3 ppmBut we're talking mash pH's here, let's say pH = 5 to make the math easierCaCO₃(s) ⇌ Ca²⁺ + CO₃^2- K_sp = 8.7 x 10^-9CO₃^2- + H⁺ ⇌ HCO₃^- K_a = 2.1 x 10¹⁰so added together CaCO₃(s) + H⁺ ⇌ Ca²⁺ + HCO₃^- K = (8.7 x 10^-9)*(2.1 x 10¹⁰) = 182.7which means at mash pH's solubility = 0.043 mol/L = 4.3 g/L = 4300 ppmTherefore at mash pH's CaCO₃ is approximately 460 x more soluble________________and 16.2 g in 5 gal is about 860 ppm CaCO₃ or about 340 ppm Ca²⁺

Edited by shaggaroo, 07 April 2009 - 07:25 PM.

[dagomike]

OK, so if my calculations are correct, at mash pH's CaCO₃ is approximately 460 x more soluble than in pure water_________________CaCO₃(s) ⇌ Ca²⁺ + CO₃^2- K_sp = 8.7 x 10^-9Therefore in pure water, solubility = 9.3 x 10^-5 mol/L = 0.0093 g/L = 9.3 ppmBut we're talking mash pH's here, let's say pH = 5 to make the math easierCaCO₃(s) ⇌ Ca²⁺ + CO₃^2- K_sp = 8.7 x 10^-9CO₃^2- + H⁺ ⇌ HCO₃^- K_a = 2.1 x 10¹⁰so added together CaCO₃(s) + H⁺ ⇌ Ca²⁺ + HCO₃^- K = (8.7 x 10^-9)*(2.1 x 10¹⁰) = 182.7which means at mash pH's solubility = 0.043 mol/L = 4.3 g/L = 4300 ppmTherefore at mash pH's CaCO₃ is approximately 460 x more soluble________________and 16.2 g in 5 gal is about 860 ppm CaCO₃ or about 340 ppm Ca²⁺

* adds chalk to HLT *Huh. It just sits on the bottom.* adds chalk to MLT * Ah hah!

[shaggaroo]

* adds chalk to HLT *Huh. It just sits on the bottom.* adds chalk to MLT * Ah hah!

Brilliant!

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

chalk dissolves much better in the mash than water.That sounds like a lot of chalk if this is a 5 gal batch.

I have very soft water. Brewbasser seems to think it's alright - I hope he is correct

[dagomike]

I guess if you're talking like Pilsen water, then that's probably not too bad. Just going off my moderately hard water, that would be a lot.

[shaggaroo]

I guess if you're talking like Pilsen water, then that's probably not too bad. Just going off my moderately hard water, that would be a lot.

Still sounds a bit high to me... my comment above about 860 ppm CaCO₃ was based on 5 gal... I've modified that to 7 gal assuming that's how much water you use... in that case 16.5 g CaCO₃ in 7 gal is about 623 ppm CaCO₃ or 250 ppm Ca²⁺ and 374 ppm CO₃^2–. If you're going after a stout I would have assumed something like Dublin water profile where its about half that much Ca²⁺ and CO₃^2–.

Edited by shaggaroo, 08 April 2009 - 07:39 AM.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Still sounds a bit high to me... my comment above about 860 ppm CaCO₃ was based on 5 gal... I've modified that to 7 gal assuming that's how much water you use... in that case 16.5 g CaCO₃ in 7 gal is about 623 ppm CaCO₃ or 250 ppm Ca²⁺ and 374 ppm CO₃^2–. If you're going after a stout I would have assumed something like Dublin water profile where its about half that much Ca²⁺ and CO₃^2–.

I don't really chase water profiles. I just make sure that I don't do anything that will make the end product taste bad (try to get in the right pH, sodium, and sulfate levels)

[shaggaroo]

I don't really chase water profiles. I just make sure that I don't do anything that will make the end product taste bad (try to get in the right pH, sodium, and sulfate levels)

Fair enough... I'm just saying those styles (e.g. stouts) developed for a reason, which was the available water profile in that area... which is why I said the levels still looked a bit high to me. No big thang...