14 replies to this topic

[haeffnkr]

Hello,

Anyone have some water numbers they use for a Sweet Stout?

 

I will be building this from RO/DI water.

 

thanks Kevin

[neddles]

I don't, but thinking out loud I think I would forego the sulfate altogether and get my calcium up to 50 or more using CaCl alone. Then adjust pH to ~5.4 with additional acid (above and beyond the dark grains) or sodium bicarbonate (if your grain bill already takes the pH too low). Make sense?

Edited by nettles, 02 April 2015 - 05:05 PM.

[mabrungard]

I wouldn't go so far as to completely delete sulfate, but you won't need much. Using baking soda to limit the pH drop is also a good idea since this style does turn out nicer when the wort pH is in the 5.5 to 5.6 range. Do bring the calcium content to around 50 ppm so that the beer will clear in a reasonable amount of time. And finally, I suggest that you work with a calculator like Bru'n Water to help you figure out how the mash pH and mineral additions will work out with your grist. 

[neddles]

I wouldn't go so far as to completely delete sulfate, but you won't need much. Using baking soda to limit the pH drop is also a good idea since this style does turn out nicer when the wort pH is in the 5.5 to 5.6 range. Do bring the calcium content to around 50 ppm so that the beer will clear in a reasonable amount of time. And finally, I suggest that you work with a calculator like Bru'n Water to help you figure out how the mash pH and mineral additions will work out with your grist.

Martin, what should he expect to gain/notice from a small sulfate addition in this beer and how do you envision it benefitting the finished product?Also what are your thoughts on sodium additions to a sweeter malty style like this? Im thinking something around 40-60 ppm?

[haeffnkr]

I wouldn't go so far as to completely delete sulfate, but you won't need much. Using baking soda to limit the pH drop is also a good idea since this style does turn out nicer when the wort pH is in the 5.5 to 5.6 range. Do bring the calcium content to around 50 ppm so that the beer will clear in a reasonable amount of time. And finally, I suggest that you work with a calculator like Bru'n Water to help you figure out how the mash pH and mineral additions will work out with your grist. 

 

Ok thanks

What are some target numbers then to shoot for?

[haeffnkr]

What about this 

 

Ca⁺² Mg⁺² Na⁺ Cl^- SO₄^-2 HCO₃^-

 80        5    25   75  80     100

Edited by haeffnkr, 03 April 2015 - 12:29 PM.

[haeffnkr]

Here are my numbers that get me a 5.61 ph via brewerfriend advance water profile tool by "stuff" to the water including lime and baking soda.

 

 

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl-     SO4-2      mash pH

96.6  1.7        51.3 82.2 82.7       5.61

[neddles]

 

Here are my numbers that get me a 5.61 ph via brewerfriend advance water profile tool by "stuff" to the water including lime and baking soda.

 

 

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl-     SO4-2      mash pH

96.6  1.7        51.3 82.2 82.7       5.61

 

Were it mine, I would add less baking soda and lime and settle at pH of 5.4-5.5. That said what you have there by the numbers looks okay.  Preferably I think I would have less sulfate in there too. Some of this gets to be a matter of personal taste and Martin has much more experience with water adjustment than I so take my advice for what it is.

[haeffnkr]

Were it mine, I would add less baking soda and lime and settle at pH of 5.4-5.5. That said what you have there by the numbers looks okay.  Preferably I think I would have less sulfate in there too. Some of this gets to be a matter of personal taste and Martin has much more experience with water adjustment than I so take my advice for what it is.

 

I appreciate the input...thanks.

[mabrungard]

Martin, what should he expect to gain/notice from a small sulfate addition in this beer and how do you envision it benefitting the finished product?Also what are your thoughts on sodium additions to a sweeter malty style like this? Im thinking something around 40-60 ppm?

 

Part of the problem is that brewers think that chloride makes beer sweet and sulfate makes beer bitter. Wrong on both counts. Chloride aids in the perception of fullness and sulfate aids in the perception of dryness. Sweetness and bitterness are largely a function of the hop bittering level. 

 

So in the case of a sweet stout, that minor concentration of sulfate helps dry the finish slightly. That is still an important characteristic in any beer.

 

I feel that sodium content is helpful in maltier styles. It does improve the perception of sweetness.

[Brauer]

Were it mine, I would add less baking soda and lime and settle at pH of 5.4-5.5. That said what you have there by the numbers looks okay.  Preferably I think I would have less sulfate in there too. 

I'd tend to agree with this. I'd think that the roast would go a long way toward supplying the perception of dryness in a style like this. 

 

Any thoughts on whether SO4 and roast might clash? Some of the harsher Black IPAs come to mind. I don't think I've ever tried that much SO4 in a very roasty beer, like a stout. 

[mabrungard]

Both SO4 and roast have drying effects. You would want to consider them in concert. If there is a lot of roast, the amount of sulfate should go down in order to avoid an overly drying finish.

 

The point I was making above was that sulfate doesn't have to go to zero in roasty styles, it just needs to be limited. 

[positiveContact]

last stout  I made I only used calcium chloride to get the pH down to around 5.4.  This means my sulfate numbers were pretty low (less than 30).  It's one of the better stouts I've made.  I've also done the just use my water as is for stouts (which still lands me around 5.4-5.5 typically).  I think I prefer them with some chloride. 

[haeffnkr]

Thanks guys.

 

I will be brewing this tonight below are my numbers for water additions to 13 gallons of RO mash water.

 

[color=#000000;]Mash ph 5.54[/color]

 

Gypsum:              10 g - CaSO4•2H2O ~2.5 tsp

Epsom salt:           2 gm -- MgSO4•7H2O ~0.4 tsp

Calcium chloride   9 gm - CaCl2•2H2O ~2.0 tsp

Baking Soda:        10 gm - NaHCO3 ~1.7 tsp

Slaked Lime:         1 gm - Ca(OH)2 ~0.3 tsp

 

Kevin

[neddles]

 

Thanks guys.

 

I will be brewing this tonight below are my numbers for water additions to 13 gallons of RO mash water.

 

[color=#000000;]Mash ph 5.54[/color]

 

Gypsum:              10 g - CaSO4•2H2O ~2.5 tsp

Epsom salt:           2 gm -- MgSO4•7H2O ~0.4 tsp

Calcium chloride   9 gm - CaCl2•2H2O ~2.0 tsp

Baking Soda:        10 gm - NaHCO3 ~1.7 tsp

Slaked Lime:         1 gm - Ca(OH)2 ~0.3 tsp

 

Kevin

 

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.